Presbyterians reverse decision

**bane** · 29th September 2006, 18:44

counting down to being moved to the scottish thread... but here goes

"Progressive Presbyterians at the General Assembly were deeply saddened that the Assembly today rejected partnered gay and lesbian people, and people living in de facto relationships, as ministers and elders. They regard the decision as an affront to the gospel."

Im not a church goer, and im currently in a 10yr+ defacto relationship, but I have to agree with their decision.

Surely an organisation that is based on a belief that gay and defacto relationships are wrong, can not in good faith, have people practicing those relationships in positions of power.

I mean it would be like a labour government making right wingers such as Richard Prebble and Roger Douglas cabinet ministers....

**McJim** · 29th September 2006, 19:06

Well they could take the unprecendented action of disregarding the organised religion model and trying to live in the spirit of the bible - i.e. lets try being nice to one another for a change. However I've found with most religions tied into the Koran, Torah or Bible - the more organised and devout they are the more institutionally evil, cruel, mean and selfish they are.

But this is just my own experience of presbyterians/brethern and free church of Scotland.

**bane** · 29th September 2006, 19:11

Originally Posted by McJim

....and free church of Scotland.

Free! I thought nothing was free in Scotland

**Lou Girardin** · 29th September 2006, 19:24

Originally Posted by bane

I mean it would be like a labour government making right wingers such as Richard Prebble and Roger Douglas cabinet ministers....

They'd never do that. Would they?

**Oakie** · 29th September 2006, 19:46

Originally Posted by bane

Surely an organisation that is based on a belief that gay and defacto relationships are wrong, can not in good faith, have people practicing those relationships in positions of power.

Perhaps they should change the belief?

**Skyryder** · 29th September 2006, 20:52

Yep heard it on the news tonight. If you are going to espouse Christian beliefs then it is essential that the leadership practices what it preaches.

Skyryder

**Edbear** · 29th September 2006, 21:39

Originally Posted by Skyryder

it is essential that the leadership practices what it preaches.

Hey, what a novel idea...!

**Ixion** · 29th September 2006, 21:43

Desirable, but not essential

From THE ARTICLES OF RELIGION
Agreed upon by the Archbishops, Bishops,
and the whole clergy of the Provinces of Canterbury and York,
London, 1562

XXVI. Of the Unworthiness of the Ministers, which hinders not the effect of the Sacraments.
Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil have chief authority in the Ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by his commission and authority, we may use their Ministry, both in hearing the Word of God, and in receiving the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished from such as by faith, and rightly, do receive the Sacraments ministered unto them; which be effectual, because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be ministered by evil men. Nevertheless, it appertaineth to the discipline of the Church, that inquiry be made of evil Ministers, and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences; and finally, being found guilty, by just judgment be deposed.

BTW, this does not in itself make any judgement on homeosexuality or unmarried cohabitation. Merely that it is not essential that ministers or priests be blameless, whatever that may mean. If homosexuality and non marital relationships are not "evil" then there is no problem. If they are (please note the :if), then that is not itself a disqualification for a priest. Let him who is without sin etc.

Or, alternatively, maybe people should just mind their own business.

**Drum** · 29th September 2006, 21:45

Originally Posted by McJim

Well they could take the unprecendented action of disregarding the organised religion model and trying to live in the spirit of the bible - i.e. lets try being nice to one another for a change. However I've found with most religions tied into the Koran, Torah or Bible - the more organised and devout they are the more institutionally evil, cruel, mean and selfish they are.

But this is just my own experience of presbyterians/brethern and free church of Scotland.

The bible tells the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where the homo's and infidels are killed by a rain of fire (or hail or the such). God isnt actually that tolerant of gays.

By the way, I have nothing against (christians or gays - theyre all just people with different beliefs in my book).

**Finn** · 29th September 2006, 22:46

Originally Posted by McJim

free church of Scotland.

There ain't nothing free about a church or religion for that matter. They've been milking people dry for centuries.

**Skyryder** · 30th September 2006, 08:29

Originally Posted by Finn

There ain't nothing free about a church or religion for that matter. They've been milking people dry for centuries.

Good one Finn. Another 'positive' post from you as usual.

Yes but those that go allow themselves to be milked willingly so that that may recieve eternal salvation.

Man has always believed in a god/goddes or gods to explain the unexplainable. The mystery and fear of death is to some extent relieved by the belief of an afterlife or as the Buddists and eastern religions; rebirth/reincarnation. The essential difference between the two is that with Christianity the Kingdom of God can only be entered through the Christ and the belief of the Trinity. Without this acknowledgmet by the indavidual the 'Pearly Gates' are shut for all eternity.

Eastern religious philosphy lays down a pathway of devotion that is Karmic. In other words it is the action of the man 'and their outcomes' that determine the spirtitual evolution of the indavidual.

There are many good people of both philosopy that give their time to those that are less fortunate than themselves. If they as indaviduals are prepared to offer their 'milk' then society is better for it.

Skyryder

**terbang** · 30th September 2006, 10:38

Well I reckon religion (note: I dont target any one religion) is just fine and in its basic form, it is intended for the betterment of us all. What lets it down though is the power tripping control freaks that administer it. This being the negative effect of human nature.

**Finn** · 30th September 2006, 11:07

Originally Posted by Skyryder

Good one Finn. Another 'positive' post from you as usual.

Yes but those that go allow themselves to be milked willingly so that that may recieve eternal salvation.

Man has always believed in a god/goddes or gods to explain the unexplainable. The mystery and fear of death is to some extent relieved by the belief of an afterlife or as the Buddists and eastern religions; rebirth/reincarnation. The essential difference between the two is that with Christianity the Kingdom of God can only be entered through the Christ and the belief of the Trinity. Without this acknowledgmet by the indavidual the 'Pearly Gates' are shut for all eternity.

Eastern religious philosphy lays down a pathway of devotion that is Karmic. In other words it is the action of the man 'and their outcomes' that determine the spirtitual evolution of the indavidual.

There are many good people of both philosopy that give their time to those that are less fortunate than themselves. If they as indaviduals are prepared to offer their 'milk' then society is better for it.

Skyryder

Is there no end to your verbal diarrhoea? You talk so much utter bullshit they should name a disgusting smell after you. You are a classic example of someone who doesn't have a single thought of their own. Your knowledge is purely academic and is so far removed from reality.

SkyRyder you dumbass, religions are all power and money hungry corporations. Take Brasil for example, a third world economy (I'm sure your text books will concur) whos people can hardly afford to feed their fucking children, give a percentage of their sweat money to the fucking Church. As if the Vatican is short of money.

SkyRyder, the world isn't flat anymore, the maoris didn't really catch NZ on a fishing rod and the basis of all religion is a fairy tale.

**terbang** · 30th September 2006, 11:16

Originally Posted by Finn

the maoris didn't really catch NZ on a fishing rod .

As an aside note. How did the maoris know the shape of the north Island resembled a large fish to be able to make that legend? They didn't have satellites did they..?

**Finn** · 30th September 2006, 11:23

Originally Posted by terbang

As an aside note. How did the maoris know the shape of the north Island resembled a large fish to be able to make that legend? They didn't have satellites did they..?

Sky is an important part of maori culture. It dates back hundreds of years.

Besides, I've never seen a fish that resembles the north island.