Do Dirtbike riders make better road riders?

[bluninja]

Just thought I'd pull this out of the cops thread....

Denill proposes that dirbike riding makes people more competent on road bikes. Whilst I agree that you will encounter many low grip situations that you will have to deal with, and that you can take a tumble without serious injury I don't believe that the skills of dirtbike riding are directly transferable to the road. Here's my reasoning.

1) You don't learn any traffic/hazard awareness hooning across fields and through the woods.

2) You learn a rear brake bias to stopping; which is the opposite (for most road bikes) to road riding.

Yes you do get to learn good throttle control and a sense of the grip available. Yes popping a wheelstand is easier to learn. But making you a good roadrider...no! Well no more than racing around a track makes you a good roadrider.

TTFN

[bikerboy]

I haven't ridden off road since I was much younger than Kwaka is now. However I think it would give you greater confidence ON a bike, more skill in controlling the bike, and possible reduce the sudden panic of a little slide, going into a corner a bit fast, improve you sense of balance etc.

While these things will not make you a better road rider per se, I think they would improve your ability to ride, therefore allowing your to concentrate more on the hazards side of things and less on tha actual riding.

Just my thoughts.

[Skunk]

I agree with bikerboy on this one...

Any confidence on a bike is good. I road rider who finds himself in a 'twitch' mid corner is more likely to do the wrong thing (shut the throttle) than a dirt rider (did something happen?)

[denill]

I wrote: a good off road rider makes a good road rider.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...=1960#post1960

 

But yeah, that has nothing to do with `road craft`. That could be another topic again.

 

Both those skills [ability AND craft] are required if a road rider is to keep out of [physical] trouble, especially if one is to ride briskly?

No matter how long you have ridden a bike for, everytime you ride you will learn something more - on or off road. One of the appeals of motorcycling is the high degree of rider input required and that follows, that if the rider input is faulty the result is not good!!

Thus every riding experience is honing the skills required to a greater OR lesser degree. Using the right gear for a corner, the right line etc.

I disagree that off road encourages rear braking only. The front brake is still the effective brake for stopping off road as it is in on-road braking. But just as in on-road, judicious use is the key.

Off-road, the back wheel will just spend most of the time in the air as in on-road hard braking. Off-road, the rear brake is probably mostly used for steering - not applicable to most on-road riders unless your name is Nori Haga.

[bluninja]

Hmmm. Most comments so far seem to opine that the skills learned controlling a dirtbike will reap benefits when grip is lost on the road. I do not disagree with this view. However should a good rider plan his route ahead making allowances for the grip expected, and not using all of it, the number of times to call on those skills should be very small. Isn't the art of riding to not place yourself in the hazardous situation rather than gain all the skills to get out of them?

An example: Riding to an intersection, a car approaches from a minor road indicating right. Do you:

a) Keep going cos your lights are on and he's bound to see you. If they do pull out you can use your lighting reflexes, and dirtbike honed skills to brake, swerve round the front or back of the car and be on your way.

b) Cover your brakes take a road position where they can see you best, and you have alternative escape routes. At the point of your minimum braking distance(which is a riding skill) you apply the brakes if you consider the car will pull out, and stop if needs be.

(In both options the use of the horn to attract attention is allowed..lol)

Both options require good riding skills, wherever they are learned. I know many riders who have used option a) and gone over the front of the car. I mentally resist option b) cos why should I have to stop? but hey I get to accelerate away hard once it's over 

I learned to ride on a roadbike and not offroad(now it comes out....my way MUST be the best way) but I have worked on my handling skills on tarmac. My one road accident was down to a mistake in my roadcraft, my riding skills allowed me to survive mys mistake. Roadcraft to one side, surely a better rider is one that hones their skills and works on their machine control, not just because they've ridden a dirtbike.

TTFN

[Skunk]

I learnt to ride on the road. I'm now trying off road.

Things I have learnt (from my off road riding):
Don't be unnerved by the bike moving under me ,
Bikes can jump ,
Throttle control,
Clutch control,
Most important - confidence - crash a dirt bike and find YOUR limits without too much pain and or money.

Note that ALL of the above have nothing to do with roadcraft, the bike or the place (road/dirt). They are all to do with bike control and rider skills.

Yes a roadrider can learn the skills. So can a dirtrider. But by doing both you get a rounder set of skills and confidence.

My 2 cents worth...

[Coldkiwi]

This is a curious thread. I was thinking about the topic while watching the racing at Paeroa. I think it was the Formula 3's where there were motards racing. The blokes riding them were clearly ex-dirtbike riders (hanging the inside foot out through the corners!!) riding them like a dirt bike (with slicks)- but despite all this, they came in 1 and 2, pipping race preped zxr400's

Now, I dunno WHAT to make of that. A motard ridden like a dirtbike beats a road bike ridden like a trackbike on the road.. I mean what the *&^#????

[denill]

This is an interesting thread and at least we are thinking about `it` and that can`t be a bad thing, eh.

The ideas coming out in this thread are not diameterically opposed but there is certainly a difference of opinion.

In support of my statement that `a good off road rider will make a very good road rider`- Many if not most world class road racers have a MX background and in fact they use off-road riding as part of their traning regime.

So I reckon that the skills of handling/riding the bike are better than they would be with out the off-road experience. But that of course just deals with the small picture of riding skillfully but not the big picture of dealing with the peripheral dangers inherent in road-riding.

So yeah, you are right as road craft(iness) is probably the key ingredient to staying in one piece. There are many world class road racers who will not venture on to the road as they reckon it is too dangerous. And they may well be right. And in actual fact they may not be as good road-riders than some readers.

So the word good become subjective. The person may be able to ride the bike good on the road but not be a good road-rider.

Road craft(iness) is about: Every car in your immediate vicinity is out to get YOU - around every blind corner is a car on it`s wrong side or some loose shingle - etc etc. Or simply put -  `the supreme pessimist` road user.

[wkid_one]

My thoughts for what it is worth is that it has nothing to do with what you ride, but rather just riding in general.  You only get confidence and experience from encountering different situations.  Yes, dirt riding is likely to help in certain situations, but there are going to be events in road riding that will never happen if you are a dirt rider - that will catch you of guard.  The opposite it true.

A dirt rider of 10 years and a road rider of 10 years are likely to have the same confidence on a bike in the conditions they are used to riding.  Much like a soccer player won't have the 'match fitness' to play rugby, but is likely to pick it up quicker than someone who hasn't played.

I believe it is more about 'saddle time' than which is better for the other.

I play competitive snooker - and this also makes me a good pool player - BUT I will always get beaten by someone who plays competitive pool...same goes in riding.  It will help, but not be the be all and end all.

I think it is important for riders to ride dirt/enduro/motox etc and experience all facets of riding - as the skills learnt may help you when you hit gravel and the front or bike steps out..........neither is better - just different.

NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

A dirt rider who spends his whole time riding on a beach is going to struggle going trail riding.........

If you want to become a good road rider - nothing is better than riding on the roads!!!!

[Skunk]

Originally posted by wkid_one
NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING...

I see your point but think the fact that dirt is different to road means that it is 'value added road time'.

I used to 'freak' a little if the bike twitched while cornering (or slid a little). Since dirt riding that doesn't bother me so much.

I don't think this would have come about without the off-road riding...

[bluninja]

Hey guys some great stuff here, even though we have differing thoughts, opinions and experiences. One point I would like to pick up on from Wkid

NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

I disagree in that, a crap rider who doesn't seek to improve will still be a crap rider in 10, 20, 30 years time (assuming that they survive) no matter how many k's they cover on their chosen surface. To use the snooker analogy; you can play on snooker tables for 2 hours every day and not get any better. It is the quality of the practice, evaluation of mistakes, and the drive to improve that makes the time spent (doing anything really) a step to better things.

As for the supermotard thing, Paeroa in the new layout was stop and squirt for a lot of the track on quite bumpy surface. Ideal for supermotard.  At a tight bumpy track they are competitive with lightweight sportsbikes, with higher speed corners they lose out (eg Manfeild.....and they are gone at Pukekohe).

TTFN

[Skunk]

Originally posted by bluninja
NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

I disagree in that, a crap rider who doesn't seek to improve will still be a crap rider in 10, 20, 30 years time (assuming that they survive) no matter how many k's they cover on their chosen surface. It is the quality of the practice, evaluation of mistakes, and the drive to improve.

HEY! That's what I was thinking!

[Kiwibiker]

Guys for what is it worth.. I believe that on road - off road riding complement one another... When in NZ I used to ride off road every weekend in the winter, and not so much on the road.. When I came across to the UK I stopped the off road riding for 4 years until six months ago (when I brought a Gas Gas EC300 and ride every Sunday in the Peak District), but continued to ride on road everyday...  Since getting back into off road riding , visual responses, thinking patterns, and reactions have all increased to give me a lot more confidence on the road..fficeffice" />>>

 I think a lot of it is about feel, u know the way u feel the bike move on different surfaces, the way it feels when a strong cross wind is blowing, the way it feels when u wined the throttle on and send the node skyward, the way it feels when u throw it into a corner. .   Both feel different but support the same neurons to make u ride better.

BTW I don't support the NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

 I  know a guy that has been riding 30 years, even raced in the IOM and he is a Fu*&ing nightmare on the road.

[Coldkiwi]

I personally think the riding licence regime in Auckland at least should be changed. If you can prove you rode every weekday from the suburbs to the city and back on a motorcyle and didn't get hit/killed you should get your full licence without doing a test!

I believe I am a reasonably good road rider (at least for my age) and fairly crafty/pessimistic because I do just that... riding 6 out of 7 days a week at least. I don't think it's just related to how long in years, but more how often and in what conditions.

Natural selection will eventually weed out the weak and helpless! (but sadly pluck out a few nice flowers on the way too)

[wkid_one]

To clarify all the nitpicking that goes on when someone provides a comment that doesn't agree with everyone elses......I ASSUMED we were talking about people who wish to IMPROVE their riding - in this case - time in the saddle is the most important thing - you can't improve your riding from books or videos - it is only about encoutering every possible situation and learning from it.  Why do insurance companys load premiums for people under 25 - cause they have more accidents - why because they are less experienced (either to handle to situation or know when to hoon). 

Your analogy is also bullshit - as if you just ride a dirt bike for a dirt bikes sake you will learn nothing - you have to know what you are trying to improve in your road riding skills and 'transfer' those skills to the road - Just riding a dirt bike is not enough.

Don't treat me as so stupid as to assume sitting on a bike is worthy enough to improve - yes we don't improve by OSMOSIS - I ASSUMED EVERYONE HERE WANTED TO IMPROVE THEIR RIDING - HENCE MY COMMENTS.

I didn't realise this site was so pendantic.

Why to GP/SBK riders do so well - they have put the hours in on the track - they know the track intimately and there bike.  Yes you have to have goals in why you are riding - but I presumed this was a given - BUT THANKS FOR POINTING IT OUT - NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUS IT WAS.

My point is that you need to put in the time to improve - nothing beats it - there is no quick cure to becoming a good rider - it is just experience and confidence (in yourself and your bike). 

Sorry for my tirade but I get sick of two things:

1.  People being anal

2. People not accepting contrary views to theirs

I never said dirt bike riding wasn't valuable - it just isn't going to make you a better road rider than time spent pushing you limits on the road.  I think every rider should experience every type of riding (read my original post) as any cross over skills are invaluable.