Oil Aint Always Oil...

[Paul in NZ]

No - NOT an 'what oil should I use' thread but... Some of you who like to get your hands dirty may be interested!!

My 1970 Triumph shares the engine oil in the primary, it was the first year of this modification and effectively it uses what you moderns would call a wet clutch. I have been using Penrite HPR30 for a while as I've found it to be a very good oil in most older bikes and is made in some pretty old 'thick' weights that are not so easy to purchase off the forecorurt. Since the advent of Supercheap, it's easily purchased as well. Choice!!

After my rebuild, I filled up with the last of the container I had for the Moto Guzzi and after a bit of a strop, dumped the oil and put in a fill from a fresh pack. Before long, the clutch started slipping (a bit of a weak point on sone old Triumphs) but since I KNOW I cleaned and checked the plates and set it up very carefully. (sacrificed the families best goat as well) I was a bit confused....

so.....

I contacted Penrite, the makers of my personal choice of overpriced dead dinosaur juice and - the nice gent recommended that I NOT continue to use my customary HPR30 as it has been upgraded to SM spec. He illuminated me... SM oils don't have to contain what has been a traditional friction modifier, however the SM spec does require certain fuel efficiency standards and this has led to some products using new chemistry which has been found to have a similar effect on motorcycle wet clutches as the traditional friction modifiers. It is therefore best to avoid SM oils in motorcycles.


He recommends either the 'Enduro' (which sounds a bit 'thick' to me)

ENDURO 4 STROKE

A 25W-70 non-friction modified engine oil for air and water cooled engines. Ideal for Evolution engined Harley Davidsons and large capacity (greater than 600cc) European motorcycles in competition, high temperature
operation, other arduous conditions and in such motorcycles with high mileage for normal operation.

Or the HPR Diesel (that I know is stocked locally)

HPR DIESEL

High viscosity engine oil for use in older diesel engined vehicles operating in extreme climates, under high loads or where oil consumption with conventional viscosity grades is a problem. May be used in turbocharged engines.

SAE 20W-60, API CH-4/SJ, ACEA A3/B3, M2C 911-A1, Global DLD-1

Or the gas eqivalent (LPG gas)

HPR GAS

Higher viscosity oil developed specifically for older LPG fuelled cars and light commercial vehicles. Contains carefully selected additives to minimise nitration of the oil, maintaining bearing life. May be used in older fleets of mixed fuelled light vehicles including in turbocharged engines and also in Harley Davidson Twin Cam engines.

SAE 20W-60, API CG-4/SL, ACEA A3/B4, HN 2314, MB 229.1

My goodness - this oil thing is complicated eh? The Gas or Diesel sounds good to me but what it does illustrate is that oil specs are always changing and it's important to read and understand the packaging!

Paul N

[Motu]

Bloody Yanks and their fuel efficiency standards,it affects the rest of the world as usual.It was normaly only oils below 10/30 that were fuel efficiency rated and so have friction modifiers in.I'm surprised Penrite would move a straight 30 weight into that category as it would never be used in a modern vehicle,it's sold as a ''classic'' oil.

Penrite are an Aussie company and they seem to run really thick oil,totaly opposed to the Yanks who are going thinner and thinner....and yet the Commodore V6 is a Buick engine (GM3800 (thirty eigtht hundred) it's called over there) and so gets run on things like 0/20 oils.I used to run that 40/70 in the old MkII Escort,and in older customer's cars,never had a problem with it.

Personaly I'd move to a European oil (Fuchs) where they don't have friction modified oils to meet fuel efficiency standards....yet.Use a 15/40 diesel rated oil,and I'd try for a low ash American spec oil in the Triumph,as Euro and Jap spec oils suspend particals to be filterd,the US oils allow particals to drop to the bottom of the sump to be taken out at the oil change.....that might suit a non filtered dry sump motor better.

[Paul in NZ]

I used to run good old Castrol GTX in the winter and GP50 in the summer but since I added a spin on filter to the return line, I thought the HPR 30 (actually a 20W - 60W) would be OK. Besides, getting GP50 these days is a pain where I can wander off to Supercheap and get the full range of Penrite stuff.

HPR30 is very thick when cold though and I worry about it's ability to pass the gauze filter in the sump / oil tank... I would not want anything thicker. In the summer I often put HPR40 in the Guzzi and you can detect the difference in cranking speed starting from cold. Very sticky!

I guess the point to me was, a certain name/brand changes with time and I never thought to check the labelling because I'd used it for yonks and knew it was not an SM oil...

Paul N

[WINJA]

On A Side Note I Spoke To A Chemist From The Petrochem Industry And He Reckons One Of The Best Oils Around Is The Rerefined Stuff Cause All The Weak Bits Of The Oil Are Chewed Up In The First Use , Then Your Only Left With The Strong Bits Which Is Refined And You Put Into Your Engine

[Paul in NZ]

On A Side Note I Spoke To A Chemist From The Petrochem Industry And He Reckons One Of The Best Oils Around Is The Rerefined Stuff Cause All The Weak Bits Of The Oil Are Chewed Up In The First Use , Then Your Only Left With The Strong Bits Which Is Refined And You Put Into Your Engine

Hmmm... He didn't happen to work for a re refinery did he??

Seriously though, I've often wondered about re refined oil. I pobably would never use it but don't see the need to go insane with mega expensive oil either. (Penrite is dear enough). Whatever the cost, my old dad used to say that oil was the cheapest thing you ever put in your engine. Certainly, some vehicles are a lot harder on oil than others based solely on my amatuer observation. At 3,000km the Guzzi is in dire need of fresh oil and you can smell the Triumphs at 1,500km... The Toyota Starlet lasts 10,000km and it's still clear. I suppose better manufacture, water cooling etc all help.

[Motu]

We don't have an oil refinery anymore which is a pity,I used to use their oil a lot.

[Ixion]

Bugger damn and blast. Blurdy yanks. Sarge, this is all your fault. Get hold of the Prez fella of yours and tell him to sort it out. Leave our ruddy oil alone.

EDIT: I used to use rerefined oil a lot back when you could get it, never had any problems.

Also, you need to watch out with detergent oils on old bike engines that have the oil thrower in the crank web thing.If you use a high detergent oil, the particles don't drop out and fall to the bottom of the tank , they get carried round to the crank, where the centripetal force spins them out into the crank web sludge passage (as it's designed to do) Problem is, with a detergent oil, and ALL the particles being spun out at the crank, the passage fills up solid much faster than expected.Which causes PROBLEMS/

[Paul in NZ]

Bugger damn and blast. Blurdy yanks. Sarge, this is all your fault. Get hold of the Prez fella of yours and tell him to sort it out. Leave our ruddy oil alone.
/

Iraq said pretty much the same thing....

[Paul in NZ]

Also, you need to watch out with detergent oils on old bike engines that have the oil thrower in the crank web thing.If you use a high detergent oil, the particles don't drop out and fall to the bottom of the tank , they get carried round to the crank, where the centripetal force spins them out into the crank web sludge passage (as it's designed to do) Problem is, with a detergent oil, and ALL the particles being spun out at the crank, the passage fills up solid much faster than expected.Which causes PROBLEMS/

It seems pretty hard to find non detergent oils and I'm not sure which spec number tells me what is and is not detergent. I think adding the filter is the best bet as it should keep the oil cleaner on the supply side.

I checked / cleaned the sludge trap this time and after 50,000 miles of GTX / GP50 changed regularly there was hardly any build up at all.