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Thread: How to brake quickly and safely

  1. #76
    ''Panic stop'' is just a phrase to describe a maximum effort stop.For a WoF test on a motor vehicle we are required to do a ''Panic stop'' and record the readings - of course I don't get into a panic situation a dozen times a day....but I do hit the brakes with maximum effort.With the front brake on hard enough to cause marginal traction or lift the rear wheel off the ground,the ability to turn has practically disapeared...and so has all other options but to stop in time,which you may not have.
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  2. #77
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    During a training course I attended a couple of years ago I was taught, during an emergency stop, to apply the front brake first (obviously) then immediately apply the rear brake, and ignore the clutch totally. We tested this technique and compared it against other techniques/habits riders on the course brought with them. The reason being that irrespective of what gear you're in - the natural engine breaking of the bike's motor will help. So by pulling the clutch in you, in effect, negate the engine breaking ability of the engine. In addition you may have the opportunity to swerve around the object ahead of you, so use this valuable time to steer, not worry about pulling clutches in and lowering the gears.

    Sure - if you've time drop down the box then do it. But I would strongly advise against pulling the clutch in completely and keeping it in during an emergency. Pull it in only when you feel the engine is going to stall you should pull the clutch in, or if you have time to change down gears.

    In all honesty I'm a lucky git in that I've only ever had to do one emergency stop in anger during my 20+ years of riding. But I practice them quite often.

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  3. #78
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    No, the reason to ignore the clutch is not for the sake of engine breaking. You can eaisly lock the rear wheel with the rear brake, what more would engine braking add?

    The reason not to declutch is in fact the exact opposite. Declutched the rear brake will very easily lock up. With the clutch engaged the flywheel effect of the engine will keep the wheel spinning.
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  4. #79
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    I recall a fatal where a young guy used only his rear brake... and for that matter stamped on the thing... hence a huge lock up. Great advice here by many. Front first - firm and progressive, not jammed on - you'll go flying), a little rear to assist. It is amazing how fast you can stop safely with practice.

    Also, make sure you put yourself in a position where you have an escape route (say up the side of the vehicle ahead) so the twat in the 4x4 behind you who can't stop in time hits the car instead of your flesh and blood. easier to say than do, but well worth remembering if you can practice it.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toaster View Post
    I recall a fatal where a young guy used only his rear brake... and for that matter stamped on the thing... hence a huge lock up. Great advice here by many.
    In the advanced rider training course I did recently.. that video from the SCU was shown. Incredibly sad video.. & incredibly unnecessary too!! if only he had learnt the correct technique to do emergency braking! We backtracked through the whole event, breaking it all down.. was a valuable exercise to do! & my deepest respect for the family, for allowing their sons accident to be used as a training tool.. to help prevent further unnecessary loss!
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  6. #81
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    I've been an avid lanesplitter for a few years, and I reckon that people who lane split on their motorbikes are more likely than those who ride their motorbike like a car, to spot or react towards "escape routes" or gaps where you can avoid obstacles without having to do emergency braking. Don't get me wrong, there's always a time and a place to do an emergency stop, but I've found that you're better off with only partial braking, and good ability to chuck the bike down a gap.

    Braking, yeah don't pull the clutch in, just quickly but progressively grab the front brake with a bit of rear to slow the spin of the wheel, if you lock the rear wheel, then just get back off. The only way to get really good is to practice, but most people are too scared of going past the traction limits when practicing braking. If you are going to know the limits of your braking ability you have to go past them at some stage, thus losing traction, doing this you will also learn how to rectify loss off traction, and if you do it enough it will become almost instinctive, and this is how you become a good rider.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtec View Post
    I've been an avid lanesplitter for a few years, and I reckon that people who lane split on their motorbikes are more likely than those who ride their motorbike like a car, to spot or react towards "escape routes" or gaps where you can avoid obstacles without having to do emergency braking. Don't get me wrong, there's always a time and a place to do an emergency stop, but I've found that you're better off with only partial braking, and good ability to chuck the bike down a gap.

    Braking, yeah don't pull the clutch in, just quickly but progressively grab the front brake with a bit of rear to slow the spin of the wheel, if you lock the rear wheel, then just get back off. The only way to get really good is to practice, but most people are too scared of going past the traction limits when practicing braking. If you are going to know the limits of your braking ability you have to go past them at some stage, thus losing traction, doing this you will also learn how to rectify loss off traction, and if you do it enough it will become almost instinctive, and this is how you become a good rider.
    I lane split too, and when I go in to splitting mode, i cover everything clutch and brake with 4 fingers, rear brake and gear shift. When I need to brake I am probably on a white line, just adding to the fun. But I will also use the clutch and, after the initial actions start to change down. If my clutch wasn't in then I would not be free to drop a gear and gas it if necessary.
    So I get braking from both wheels, even if one is slipping on a white line, I won't stall and I should always be in a good gear.

    But totally agree on finding traction limit when braking (best in a controlled place). knowing that if you do happen in to a front skid is not necessarily = an ambulance. But probably more importantly what the moment before feels like is a really useful thing to know!
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    No, the reason to ignore the clutch is not for the sake of engine breaking.
    Ok thanks - I'll make a note to send a mail to South Wales and West Mercia police advising them that their advanced pursuit instructors are giving out duff info.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biff View Post
    Ok thanks - I'll make a note to send a mail to South Wales and West Mercia police advising them that their advanced pursuit instructors are giving out duff info.
    Good man, there's a lot of duff info out there. It's just a pity that it's often instructors who perpetuate it.

  10. #85
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    No, the instructors are perfectly correct in saying to leave the clutch alone. But the reason that is a good idea is not to add more rear wheel braking , but rather to stabilise the rear wheel and stop it locking up.

    Try it for yourself

    From any practical speed, try stopping by braking as hard as possible with the rear brake only. Clutch in and clutch out. You will find in either case you can lock the rear wheel easily so there is nothing to be served by more braking effort - you can't exceed what the tyre can handle, more engine braking just means you must use less pedal. But the stopping distance with the clutch lever out will be less, because the wheel will be less inclined to lock, the engine effect stabilises it. Obviously even more so when using front brake as well, because the rear will go light.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mops View Post
    possibly it be because my rear tyre is a touring tyre, while front one is sports tyre...
    Would be a good idea to get a matched set of tyres aimed at the type of riding you are doing, touring tyres generally are aimed at "sustained" speeds and take more to warm up, they don't quite have the same traction as they are a harder compound designed to last longer

    Quote Originally Posted by mops View Post
    i'm just wondering... theoretically speaking... wouldn't the bikes braking force be the strongest when 100% of weight is on the front wheel ? think about it as you are doing a stoppie, but the rear wheel is only an inch above the ground....
    Theory is nice but you lose a lot of stability
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    No, the instructors are perfectly correct in saying to leave the clutch alone. But the reason that is a good idea is not to add more rear wheel braking , but rather to stabilise the rear wheel and stop it locking up.

    Try it for yourself

    From any practical speed, try stopping by braking as hard as possible with the rear brake only. Clutch in and clutch out. You will find in either case you can lock the rear wheel easily so there is nothing to be served by more braking effort - you can't exceed what the tyre can handle, more engine braking just means you must use less pedal. But the stopping distance with the clutch lever out will be less, because the wheel will be less inclined to lock, the engine effect stabilises it. Obviously even more so when using front brake as well, because the rear will go light.
    So you learn that you only need a light touch on your rear for it to be effective. This is lighter still when you reduce the pressure on it, ie apply the front brake. This reduction in the effectiveness of the back brake also reduces the clutch effect. So whatever bonus you gain from having the clutch out is so minimal it makes little difference.

    One reasoning for using the clutch from the word go is that once you start braking you are fixed in your actions. e.g. if you start braking with 2 fingers you cannot switch to 4 fingers. Likewise if you are in a max effort stop and decide you want to go for that convenient gap you need to be in the right gear, to be in the right gear you need to have the clutch in!!!

    Also important is the effect of what happens if your rear locks. In reality not a lot. A front slide is a tad disconcerting, and for longer than a few seconds often results in calling the ambulance. In rear slide you loose most, but not all, of your braking from your rear wheel and sometimes the back starts to slide out. As a dirt rider will tell you this is not a problem, just point the front, look where you want to go and ignore the back. If it does lock and swing right out then keep on the brake until you are back in line or are slow enough to handle the rubber regaining grip.

    If you have trained to pull clutch in and stomp down the gears then it will be a simple matter of clutch out and throttle on.

    If not then some possiblities:
    1. You are totally in the wrong gear and have to pull the clutch in, change down a few cogs and then throttle on.
    2. Or the mess in your pants makes you forget you are in the wrong gear and your accellerate away at snails pace, so then you have to make the realisation something is wrong, pull the clutch in, change down a few cogs and finally throttle on.
    3. You forget about the back wheel, there are more important things taking your attention at the moment. The back wheel stops and the bike stalls, but that is ok, you release the brake and the bike starts, unless you have stopped in which case you will have pleanty of time to hit the starter, change gear and set off again... well maybee not.

    In your pre-planned response automate the initial throttle off, front brake, clutch, light rear brake and change down. This way you can concentrate all your energies in the place with the most stopping power... the front brake. You still gain benefit from your rear brake and gears and without the cost.
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  13. #88
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    "Also important is the effect of what happens if your rear locks. In reality not a lot"

    Depends if your in a completely straight line. The back end will slide out in some instances and try to overtake the front - its happend to me. Seems to be a pretty divided opinion in or out, what I can't get my head around is, if I clutch in from 100k's and coast I don't slow down very fast, if I shut the throttle I stop a lot faster. So why would pulling the clutch in under heavy braking make me stop quicker, until the very last bit where I might stall the engine.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonbuoy View Post
    "Also important is the effect of what happens if your rear locks. In reality not a lot"

    Depends if your in a completely straight line. The back end will slide out in some instances and try to overtake the front - its happend to me. Seems to be a pretty divided opinion in or out, what I can't get my head around is, if I clutch in from 100k's and coast I don't slow down very fast, if I shut the throttle I stop a lot faster. So why would pulling the clutch in under heavy braking make me stop quicker, until the very last bit where I might stall the engine.
    In a maximum effort stop you will always be in a straight line, well according to your direction of travel and front wheel. Your back tyre will stay mostly behind, just practice the light touch! But if you do start to get out of shape and you don't have the ability to correct it, then forget about it and concentrate on stopping with your front brake. Whilst it is preferable it is not essential to keep your wheels in line and we are talking about "brown trou" moments here ;-) so stopping is the key.

    Pulling the cluch in won't make that much difference in terms of the physics, just make sure you are a bit lighter on the rear brake. Where it does make the difference is indirectly allowing you to maximise your attention on getting the front brake on and keeping it at the point just before locking. Having to keep part of your attention on the rev's and then divert most of your attention to pull the clutch at some undefined point going to add distance to your stop.

    Also, where clutch fingers when you are braking? If they are still round the bar then how the hell are you going to be able to unwrap them and place them on the lever under braking?
    The other option is thay are covering the lever, in which case they have not been doing a very good job at holding the bars.

    I guess my point is, you only have so much attention so use it where it really matters and the faster you will stop.
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  15. #90
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    I cover the clutch at all times with two fingers, three on the bars, I've never needed any more. Depends on what was hapening as to being in a straight line or not. It would be 50/50 - you might be on a slight bend at the time of braking. Or have started to turn around the object before deciding you have to brake.
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