Transit Tolls on Western Ring Route

[Disco Dan]

oh and does anybody have a legal point of view on 100s of bike bottlenecking the mway?

Would be interested to know if any KB police members on here would stop it before it happened?? or be able to anticipate this and somehow keep the traffic flowing when we all arrive??

im not one to go 'above' the law, but just interested to know what would happen?

[ManDownUnder]

oh and does anybody have a legal point of view on 100s of bike bottlenecking the mway?

Would be interested to know if any KB police members on here would stop it before it happened?? or be able to anticipate this and somehow keep the traffic flowing when we all arrive??

im not one to go 'above' the law, but just interested to know what would happen?

I don't know they could do anything... we're simply using the system as it has been designed (and indeed, how we're instructed to use it) in order to highlight a shortcoming in the design.

Gathering with intent to pay a toll?

[ManDownUnder]

I emailed Transit asking if they intend to toll bikes, and if so- how (etags etc will be a pain on a bike).

Their response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Wrrconsultation [mailto:Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz]
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:25 p.m.
To: ManDonUnder
Subject: WRR Consultation
Dear Mr Under,
Thank you for your email.
Transit's concept for collecting tolls on the WRR involves electronic tolling possibly using photographs of the numberplate front and rear.

It does not require the vehicle to stop and pay at a booth. The exact details of billing administration are yet to be confirmed, however for regular users a monthly billing system would likely be used.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.

[Pixie]

The tolling will be via radio transponders,not RFID.RFID doesn't work at a great distance.
These systems are already in use all over the world and I seen them in action in Melbourne and Sydney.If you pass through a toll point and don't trigger the equipment (because you don't have a functional transponder ) you get a piccy taken and get a nice letter in the mail at the end of the month.

Of course in NZ if you get fines in the thousands of dollars you might be forgiven them

[James Deuce]

I emailed Transit asking if they intend to toll bikes, and if so- how (etags etc will be a pain on a bike).

Their response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Wrrconsultation [mailto:Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz]
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:25 p.m.
To: ManDonUnder
Subject: WRR Consultation
Dear Mr Under,
Thank you for your email.
Transit's concept for collecting tolls on the WRR involves electronic tolling possibly using photographs of the numberplate front and rear.

It does not require the vehicle to stop and pay at a booth. The exact details of billing administration are yet to be confirmed, however for regular users a monthly billing system would likely be used.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.

errr, is it just me or did he not answer your question at all?

Can it be? They've not thought about bikes again?

[sAsLEX]

The tolling will be via radio transponders,not RFID.RFID doesn't work at a great distance.
These systems are already in use all over the world and I seen them in action in Melbourne and Sydney.If you pass through a toll point and don't trigger the equipment (because you don't have a functional transponder ) you get a piccy taken and get a nice letter in the mail at the end of the month.

Of course in NZ if you get fines in the thousands of dollars you might be forgiven them

RFID = radio frequency ID

Transponder = radio transmitter, so same kettle of fish basically, its just the more common use of RFID is passive and require short distances.

[Wolf]

The tolling will be via radio transponders,not RFID.RFID doesn't work at a great distance.

The transponders to which you refer are battery powered RFID units as per the E-ZPass system.

You could still use unpowered RFID chips similar to what is used in supermarkets with current technology: they admit to a 3-metre range on unpowered RFID chips - which (paranoid "don't trust anyone to give you the full story on the state of monitoring technology" mode enabled) probably means they can make you at 9 metres...

Anyway, even 3 metres is quite sufficient for a bottle-neck situation such as a single lane, especially if you get inventive with where you mount your antennas (like across the entire lane so that the vehicle would have to be flying more than 3 metres above the road to be out of range).

[Wolf]

errr, is it just me or did he not answer your question at all?

Nope, it's at least you and I, because I thought the same thing - can't be just a coincidence, really...

[ManDownUnder]

errr, is it just me or did he not answer your question at all?

Can it be? They've not thought about bikes again?

No - it's not you... which is perfect (the situation that is - you're a nice guy but ... well I call you perfect just once then Dover and Maurice get all huffy and they'll never talk to me again...)

Na - if they haven't thoughts about bikes the we let them build the infrastructure (faulty in it's design)... then use it as intended... FREE

Bugger eh?

[Disco Dan]

I emailed Transit asking if they intend to toll bikes, and if so- how (etags etc will be a pain on a bike).

Their response:
-----Original Message-----
From: Wrrconsultation [mailto:Wrrconsultation@transit.govt.nz]
Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:25 p.m.
To: ManDonUnder
Subject: WRR Consultation
Dear Mr Under,
Thank you for your email.
Transit's concept for collecting tolls on the WRR involves electronic tolling possibly using photographs of the numberplate front and rear.

It does not require the vehicle to stop and pay at a booth. The exact details of billing administration are yet to be confirmed, however for regular users a monthly billing system would likely be used.

Kind regards
WRR Consultation Team
Transit New Zealand - A transport system that builds a better New Zealand.

Well done! but they did not answer your question????? typical...

[Ixion]

The Australian experience, after considerable efforts, is that transponders are not practical for bikes (of course, the bike people may not have WANTED them to be practical ).

They are not waterproof. Nor vibration proof. Mounting is problematic (they are not small). Especially if the owner has multiple vehicles (they aren't cheap, you do NOT want to have to buy one for each vehicle) . And they give up completely on bikes without a battery.

Which is why the Aussies got so anal about wanting bikes to have a front number plate (that and speed cameras ).

But they have no given up on the front number plate idea.

Even with transponders I'd think that if you just ran through alongside a cage, the system wouldn't be able to figure that there were two vehicles in the beam.

And with cameras, keep hard to one side and it's bound to miss your rear plate. Assuming of course that a loose flap of ones waterproof overjacket, bungied to the pillion seat, hasn't accidentally flapped down over ones number plate. As can happen if one is careless with ones bungying

[ManDownUnder]

And with cameras, keep hard to one side and it's bound to miss your rear plate. Assuming of course that a loose flap of ones waterproof overjacket, bungied to the pillion seat, hasn't accidentally flapped down over ones number plate. As can happen if one is careless with ones bungying

Yeah I go to wondering about that one. My bike had hard luggage high mouted on the rear (overhang of 200mm beyond th back of the bike?) and the plate is on the rear guard, about 200mm in from the back of the bike, so unless the camera's on a fairly flat angle they might not be able to bill me at all...

How do I get a rectangular plate instead of the square one? Make the target even smaller LOL

[Disco Dan]

The Australian experience, after considerable efforts, is that transponders are not practical for bikes (of course, the bike people may not have WANTED them to be practical ).

They are not waterproof. Nor vibration proof. Mounting is problematic (they are not small). Especially if the owner has multiple vehicles (they aren't cheap, you do NOT want to have to buy one for each vehicle) . And they give up completely on bikes without a battery.

Which is why the Aussies got so anal about wanting bikes to have a front number plate (that and speed cameras ).

But they have no given up on the front number plate idea.

Even with transponders I'd think that if you just ran through alongside a cage, the system wouldn't be able to figure that there were two vehicles in the beam.

And with cameras, keep hard to one side and it's bound to miss your rear plate. Assuming of course that a loose flap of ones waterproof overjacket, bungied to the pillion seat, hasn't accidentally flapped down over ones number plate. As can happen if one is careless with ones bungying

i was under the impression (from photo's) that the cameras face forward, towards the road at about 45 degree angle? if so, the would be no need to try and hide rear plate?!?

....i can see this is going to be a big issue... i hope transit has their lawyers on standby for this whole toll issue...

[ManDownUnder]

i was under the impression (from photo's) that the cameras face forward, towards the road at about 45 degree angle? if so, the would be no need to try and hide rear plate?!?

....i can see this is going to be a big issue... i hope transit has their lawyers on standby for this whole toll issue...

Yes it is going to be a big issue, but a logistics issue, not a legal one. We will have the optionof paying cash (or eftpos), and we are completely entitled to take that choice.

The fact that (as motorcyclists dressed in wet weather gear) we take a minute or three to access the money is basic logistics. We can do it as fast as we can and still cause a hell of a hold up. It's a shortcoming in the system we're highlighting,..

and a sensible (desirable) outcome is that motorcycles are allowed to go free on the Tollway - or perhaps use a bus lane?

All we need to do is meet up someonewhere at 5:00pm every day, and ride home, through all the toll boths together. It'll be chaos for everyone else wanting to use those booths (and lets face it - it's not going to be too quick for us either...!)

[Disco Dan]

Yes it is going to be a big issue, but a logistics issue, not a legal one. We will have the optionof paying cash (or eftpos), and we are completely entitled to take that choice.

The fact that (as motorcyclists dressed in wet weather gear) we take a minute or three to access the money is basic logistics. We can do it as fast as we can and still cause a hell of a hold up. It's a shortcoming in the system we're highlighting,..

and a sensible (desirable) outcome is that motorcycles are allowed to go free on the Tollway - or perhaps use a bus lane?

All we need to do is meet up someonewhere at 5:00pm every day, and ride home, through all the toll boths together. It'll be chaos for everyone else wanting to use those booths (and lets face it - it's not going to be too quick for us either...!)

thanks for that, ...waiting with anticipation the outcome of all of this!