Criminal nuisance conviction for roading contractor after crash

[pete376403]

I know. Give me an example of one of those situations where no amount of planning or actions by one party could avoid the 'accident', and remember that it should include an absence of malevolent intent on either side.
I know it happens. But I'm arguing that doesn't always have to.

Something along the lines of when the earthquake that hit california some time back, cars on the upper decks of the motorways fell onto cars below. Not much anyone could have done about that, without taking precautions to extremes (don't drive at all, don't live in california)

[jrandom]

Something along the lines of when the earthquake that hit california some time back, cars on the upper decks of the motorways fell onto cars below. Not much anyone could have done about that, without taking precautions to extremes (don't drive at all, don't live in california)

Heh. OK. Er... perhaps I should have added "when earthquakes are not involved".

But I think that Funkyfly's points related to the 'fault' (ha ha!) being one-sided. In the case of an earthquake or other natural disaster, the fact that you happen to be in a car or on a bike when it hits is rather incidental and doesn't really bear on the question of distributed blame for road accidents in general.

[Motu]

Two completely different things being said here. While I agree with some of the *ability to avoid* part of what was said.Some things, as mentioned by Motu are unavoidable. There is a large difference between having the ability to avoid and being at fault.
Also Motu, you must possess magic powers in your ability to know my skills or lack of, my defensive driving or lack of.Dont mind opinion on the genral topic being discussed but to then judge my riding style is going a tad far considering we have never riden together.

Sorry,that wasn't directed to you alone,just my poor grammer at work,I was saying several things in one paragraph.

Being prepard on the road is important,as I said in my reply to Lou - if you are in a situation with limited stopping distance you don't have to crawl along,just be aware that something out of the ordinary may occour and be able to react if and when.

How about a bit of real life?...Last summer with melting roads I was riding on one of Auckland regions most popular bike roads,they will know the road between Hunua and Clevdon well,maybe not as well me - I have been riding this road since the early 70s,when it was all gravel..familiararity breeds contempt eh? coming into a blind down hill right hander I find a huge lump in the road,pushed up by trucks on the soft seal,this thing is 200mm high and only 100mm wide,like it was pulled up between the rear tyres of a truck.Holy shit! no signs and it's right on my line! I flick the bike upright,hit it straight then slam the bike down to make the rest of the corner,all without backing off the gas,that woulda been stupid.Only a small portion of what I did was skill on my part,well,ok,no skill on my part,but it was seeing a hazzard and having an instinctive plan to put into place,the rest was my bike,and of course my choice of bike for back roads is no coincidence.

Yes,I can be caught out unawares,no doubt about that,but I make sure I have an escape plan,somewhere to go,enough room to brake,swerve,whatever.I'm not infalable by a long way,but I have many cards up my sleeve.

[James Deuce]

Posted by Jim - "Every accident you have is your own fault. There is ALWAYS something you could have done to avoid one."



Go back and read my scenarios about waiting in traffic, blocked in with no where to go and someone rear ending you, in such a case you would be an innocent party.

reason on that and compare it to jims comment above.

well?

I have carried this torch long enough, i look fwd to someone else carrying it on.

One of the things always hammered home in riding courses is maintaining a survival space. If the only thing you have to deal with is traffic, then you should be able to create an out. If you didn't and didn't maintain sufficient watch in your mirrors then it's your fault. No contrast, it's the same argument.

Act's of "God" like Earthquakes don't count unless you started the earthquake. Then it's your fault.

We didn't all buckle to your view, so you're taking your toys elsewhere? Given the collective number of years riding, and the collective ages of the participants opposing your argument, and add that to some of the views you've expressed earlier one would have expected you to come over to the "dark" side by now.

[Mongoose]

Sorry,that wasn't directed to you alone,just my poor grammer at work,I was saying several things in one paragraph.

How about a bit of real life?...Last summer with melting roads I was riding on one of Auckland regions most popular bike roads,they will know the road between Hunua and Clevdon well,maybe not as well me - I have been riding this road since the early 70s,when it was all gravel..familiararity breeds contempt eh? coming into a blind down hill right hander I find a huge lump in the road,pushed up by trucks on the soft seal,this thing is 200mm high and only 100mm wide,like it was pulled up between the rear tyres of a truck.Holy shit! no signs and it's right on my line! I flick the bike upright,hit it straight then slam the bike down to make the rest of the corner,all without backing off the gas,that woulda been stupid.Only a small portion of what I did was skill on my part,well,ok,no skill on my part,but it was seeing a hazzard and having an instinctive plan to put into place,the rest was my bike,and of course my choice of bike for back roads is no coincidence.

Yes,I can be caught out unawares,no doubt about that,but I make sure I have an escape plan,somewhere to go,enough room to brake,swerve,whatever.I'm not infalable by a long way,but I have many cards up my sleeve.

I dare say we all have a cought out story,or three. I also am begining to think that there is a different interpretation on what has been said and what was actually meant, maybe I am wrong again but then again, I am used to that . I am now starting to take your idea Motu and join it in with the others, yes in most situations there is an out(off road riding helps in this ability) but at the same time others have to shoulder their share of the blame as well.

[750Y]

i wonder if the guy this thread was originally about will ever read this & what his spin would be. I wonder if he in any way was able to make good use of his personal standing as a councillor to influence the process or to at least have his case known and accepted. seems weird to me that this is the first proceeding of it's type to come before the courts. wonder how far joe bloggs with no money or position woulda got?

[Mongoose]

Just to keep the camp fire burning on this issue here is a question for Ya's all

You are driving/riding at night, its wet as you approach the intersection, being a defensive sort person you slow down seeing as its wet. But, halfway thru your left turn you find out that not all thats wet that night is water, the little bampots around here use oil to do there wheellies in(under powereded cars!). As these bampots dont piss around, no one litre of oil on the road, Oh no sir, tip the whole 44 gallon drum full of it out on the road.
So here you are, half way around the corner and suddenly no traction, is this your fault?
ps This scenario is based on actual events

[scroter]

[QUOTE=bungbung]
The prosecution resulted from Mr Parkin's crash on February 16 last year, when his motorbike skidded on loose chip on a Route 52 bend between Weber and Porangahau. It crossed the road and hit a tree and a fence.

The gravel came from a recently-sealed patch on the opposite side of the road, but there was no sign warning Mr Parkin of the danger, although there was a warning for traffic coming from the opposite direction.

Mr Parkin was not badly injured but told the court at a May hearing, in which the council and the company defended the charges, that damage to his 1000cc Aprilla twin motorbike, clothing, boots and helmet cost more than $8500.

According to evidence, a sign was put in place after roadworks were completed about January 29, but there was no evidence of its presence after that date. The loose chip had been applied by a sub-contractor on February 10.
QUOTE]

how come it took more than 18 days to sweep this road?

[scumdog]

jrandom quote:"I know it happens. But I'm arguing that doesn't always have to."

I don't think anyone was saying it ALWAYS has to jr.

[James Deuce]

Just to keep the camp fire burning on this issue here is a question for Ya's all

You are driving/riding at night, its wet as you approach the intersection, being a defensive sort person you slow down seeing as its wet. But, halfway thru your left turn you find out that not all thats wet that night is water, the little bampots around here use oil to do there wheellies in(under powereded cars!). As these bampots dont piss around, no one litre of oil on the road, Oh no sir, tip the whole 44 gallon drum full of it out on the road.
So here you are, half way around the corner and suddenly no traction, is this your fault?
ps This scenario is based on actual events

Certainly, in some way it will be. Especially if you knew the little darlings had been there.

[Funkyfly]

Heh. OK. Er... perhaps I should have added "when earthquakes are not involved".

But I think that Funkyfly's points related to the 'fault' (ha ha!) being one-sided. In the case of an earthquake or other natural disaster, the fact that you happen to be in a car or on a bike when it hits is rather incidental and doesn't really bear on the question of distributed blame for road accidents in general.

How about someone having a heart attack when driving? A seizure? when driving?

[merv]

How about someone having a heart attack when driving? A seizure? when driving?

One thing's for sure you wouldn't be able to prosecute the Council for it.

[Funkyfly]

I dare say we all have a cought out story,or three. I also am begining to think that there is a different interpretation on what has been said and what was actually meant, maybe I am wrong again but then again, I am used to that . I am now starting to take your idea Motu and join it in with the others, yes in most situations there is an out(off road riding helps in this ability) but at the same time others have to shoulder their share of the blame as well.

LOL, we arent talking "most" situations here, Motu and Jim laid down a line that stated there is ALWAYS an out.

[aza131]

A friend of mine struck this very thing on the port hills in Ch Ch, droped the bike his shoulder hit the armco and smashed it to peices. He now only has the use of one arm, I would like someone to tell him that this was his fault!

Unfortunatly sometime shit happens!!

[Mongoose]

[QUOTE=Jim2]Certainly, in some way it will be. Especially if you knew the little darlings had been there.[/QUOTE

FFS you guys, now i gotta go buy one of them magic balls wot tells Ya wots gonna happen when yer not looking