Just fill your car with water and step on the gas

**degrom** · 28th November 2006, 13:34

Friday November 24, 2006

Motorists are set for a hydrogen boost next month when vehicles are fitted with an American device that splits hydrogen from water and uses it to boost the fuel supply.

The hydrogen is injected into petrol or diesel engines to save fuel and reduce emissions, and vehicles will run for about 80 hours before needing a refill of their distilled water.

The fuel system - the Hydro-charger - will be launched in Queenstown on December 11.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/9/...ectid=10412142

What is this all about ? Is it for real?

Or is it BULL...

**McJim** · 28th November 2006, 13:58

I'd like to see some more techie shit about this.

Theoretically the energy required to split the water molecules should be equal to the energy you get released when they bond...so if the splitting gets its energy from the car (electricity) and the car gets it's energy from the subsequent bond (combustion) where does the energy to make the car go forward come from?

I'm no physicist but it defies basic logic - so where's the clever bit?

Or is it a hoax?

**vifferman** · 28th November 2006, 14:11

Originally Posted by McJim

I'd like to see some more techie shit about this.

Theoretically the energy required to split the water molecules should be equal to the energy you get released when they bond...so if the splitting gets its energy from the car (electricity) and the car gets it's energy from the subsequent bond (combustion) where does the energy to make the car go forward come from?

In fact, at present it takes MORE energy to split the two than you get from it, so what's the point? It's about as dumb as using fossil fuels to make hydrogen and getting much less energy as a result, as a given volume of hydrogen produces far less oomph than the same volume of a complex hydrocarbon like, say, petroleum distillates f'rexample.

But at least it doesn't contribute to globular yawning...

**Disco Dan** · 28th November 2006, 14:11

It appears to be a suppliment to petrol/diesel in vehicles rather than a complete replacement. The article stated emmsion reductions of up to 70% which indicates the hydrogen will suppliment the fuel to improve efficiency.

That was my interpretation anyway.

**degrom** · 28th November 2006, 15:14

What exactly is a 70% more efficient petrol engine?

A normal petrol engine runs at about 25% efficiency, the rest of the energy generated is wasted as forms of heat and noise. So for a engine to be 70% more efficient it needs to run at 42.5% overall efficiency...

This 70% extra efficiency to me sounds like Xtra's latest broad-band plans....

Unlimited broadband,if you don't download stuff...

**Disco Dan** · 28th November 2006, 15:25

Originally Posted by degrom

What exactly is a 70% more efficient petrol engine?

A normal petrol engine runs at about 25% efficiency, the rest of the energy generated is wasted as forms of heat and noise. So for a engine to be 70% more efficient it needs to run at 42.5% overall efficiency...

This 70% extra efficiency to me sounds like Xtra's latest broad-band plans....

Unlimited broadband,if you don't download stuff...

hmmm interesting... possibly they were not taking all variables into account?
They may be reffering to mileage?

Shame there is no more information on this at hand, will google later...

**Matt Bleck** · 28th November 2006, 16:12

I don't think it does actually split the hydrogen out from the water.

Worked for me dad for a while doing freelance Camera work. One job was working for the Holmes show. Was great we'd just show up and go out with a journo and go chase a story. Anyway one of these stories was this old guy, say early sixtees, had this car, it was like a humber? and what he did was add atomised water, directly after the carb, in the inlet manifold? He said that because water under combustion expands by something like 70% it gaves gain to econmy, dunno about horse power gains tho.

Was a while ago so don't quote me

**jeremysprite** · 28th November 2006, 17:12

And what happens when said cletis runs out of water near the sea, and pours salt water into it? Sodium forms, which reacts with the water to produce hydrogen gas and heat, which promptly explodes. Yay.
And theres a lot more dangerous stuff that could be dissolved in water.

**Laava** · 28th November 2006, 17:19

I find holding my thumb on the starter button as I ride round town greatly improves my power off the mark and my overall economy!

**onearmedbandit** · 28th November 2006, 17:46

BMW have been running a 760 Hybrid Hydrogen car for the past 12 months, if not longer. Now they are planning on introducing them in limited numbers into markets with Hydrogen pumping stations.

Found the article (although much reduced) I saw in the press.

http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm

(Haven't read this one)

**Donor** · 28th November 2006, 18:03

I'm a dumbass, so I'll rip this and post it from my fave daily read, Aardvark.

You can find the original article at http://www.aardvark.co.nz/daily/2006/1124.shtml

**By creating hydrogen and oxygen through the electrolysis of water, using the car's alternator, the system promises fuel savings of up to 70 percent.

Okay -- so where's that 70% of extra energy coming from?

I'll admit that I'm not a chemist - so perhaps there's some fiendishly clever molecular shuffling going on when that hydrogen and oxygen are mixed with your regular petrol and burnt under high compression in a combustion chamber -- but even that would violate the laws of thermodynamics.

We're talking about gaining around a three-fold increase in energy from the petrol burnt in a car's engine. That is just plain impossible.

Modern internal combustion engines are already running at about 30% efficiency with a maximum theoretical efficiency of around 60% and the *practical* maximum efficiency is little over half that figure. The laws of physics would therefore indicate that the claimed three-fold increase in fuel-efficiency (by what ever means) is just not possible.

You'd think a trust chaired by a university professor would know that -- or at least do the research.

So, is this yet another case of a con-job based on shonky science?**

**Ixion** · 28th November 2006, 18:11

Originally Posted by r4q2

I don't think it does actually split the hydrogen out from the water.

Worked for me dad for a while doing freelance Camera work. One job was working for the Holmes show. Was great we'd just show up and go out with a journo and go chase a story. Anyway one of these stories was this old guy, say early sixtees, had this car, it was like a humber? and what he did was add atomised water, directly after the carb, in the inlet manifold? He said that because water under combustion expands by something like 70% it gaves gain to econmy, dunno about horse power gains tho.

Was a while ago so don't quote me

Water injection , into the inlet manifold, which is a quite different thing to the black magic "water as a fuel" mumbo jumbo, was quite common in the 1950s.

It does work, in as much as it helps reduce detonation. Back then fuel was very low octance compared with overseas (72 octance from memory, but it was a long time ago, correct me someone). Post war cars had relatively high compression engines (in some cases a giddy 8:1) and tended to preignite badly.

Water injection helped reduce the preignition. The engine ran smoother, and usually some fuel economy benefit , and maybe even a bit more performance. Especially if the ignition had previously been retarded to avoid damage from detonation, and could now be advanced a bit

But if the engine isn't pre igniting, it has no value

EDIT From memory Gelignite Jack used to swear by it, and I guess he'd know.

**WINJA** · 28th November 2006, 18:16

Im Working On A New Engine Which Will Be Featured In The Herald Next Thursday, Its A 3 Cylinder , One Cylinder Runs On Diesel One On Petrol And The Other On Granulated Charcoal ,the Petrol One Is Ignited By A Flint And Striker Arrangement In The Combustion Chamber , The Diesel Will Be Run Thru The Engine First As A Lubricant And The Charcoal For The Charcoal Cylinder Will Be Scraped From The Exhaust Pipe And Run Up A Conveyer/hopper/granulator Arrangement Back To The Top Of The Engine ........... What You Believed The Other Stories

**Disco Dan** · 28th November 2006, 18:23

Originally Posted by Donor

Okay -- so where's that 70% of extra energy coming from?

We're talking about gaining around a three-fold increase in energy from the petrol burnt in a car's engine. That is just plain impossible.

We do not know if it means more power as such, rather a more feasible scenario would be that the hydrogen powers the vehicle independently of the petrol. Ie. around town uses hydrogen, on the highway it uses petrol?

Im no expert, just trying to unpack what is written