Is it really true that everybody crashes?

[Motu]

It's very difficult to crash on purpose,and yet every crash has consious decisions leading up to the desired event.With hindsight we can pinpoint where we went wrong - the skill is in making the correct decisions at the correct time.(oh fuck,I am picking up a new speak accent)

I guess reluctantly it is a case for older driving age limits,as the older the learner the less risks are taken.I was riding as a 16 year old and crashing on the first day,and the second day,and....It took some time to see the pattern and make the effort to make a good job of my riding.But I grew up in a time when risk was a part of everyday life,there was no cottonwool and we learned from our mistakes in the real world,not in a classroom.Hazzard awareness was ''Fuck that hurt! maybe I won't use the front brake in gravel again'' Hazzard identified and noted,printed in red and highlighted with a fluro green highlighter.How many credits is that worth?

[Squeak the Rat]

My 12c. There are two types of people:

1. Those who say that a crash is inevitable

2. Those who have never crashed

Common psychology thinking says that if you believe something then your subconcious mind will try to validate that belief.

People who don't understand the principle argue with questions such as "why wear safety gear then?".

Those who understand the principal tell themselves they will stay upright and reduce their risk profile to make this true (ie save the 11/10 stuff for the track) AND at the same time take measures protect themselves from fuckups (like wearing safety gear) because shit can happen no matter how careful you are.


Is it likely that you will crash after years of riding? Probably. Is it inevitable? No.

[Roj]

I think it has been said enough that everyone accepts that crashing is not inevitiable, but that what this statement tries to portray is the significant risk of crashing, and then from there the learning required to reduce the possibility.

My wife was recently involved in a bike accident, she has been riding for years prior to this, never rides hard, never goes beyond her ability, but a cage driver failed to see her and did a right turn in front of her,

the result:

12 broken bones, she now has seven plates, 1 k rod and about 30 or so screws holding everything together, she was wearing very good gear, on a red bike with headlight on....

This is what the advise offered here is aimed at trying to prevent, but sometimes circumstances are such that it doesn't matter how good or careful you are, it can happen, there have been some recent losses of KB members who where very good riders, yet their ability was not enough to protect them

Ride to live and live to ride

[Chisanga]

I am never sure whether these types of threads are seriously about "I want to ride a bike but don't want to get hurt" or an excuse to get a gratuitous thrill.

How about just wanting some accurate feedback based on the experience of people rather than from the generalisations I have heard?

[HDTboy]

I've been riding for around 18 months, and owned two bikes. In that time I've crashed 9 times. 4 on the road, and 5 on the track. I've never crashed anyone elses bike, and am not in a hurry to either.
Some will look at my record, and say I'm irresponsible, or reckless, or other. Those people won't be able to beat me around a track, and I don't give a shit how fast they are on the road. That's not where I go fast any more.
I have mates who have never crashed, and I applaud them for that. I'm prepared to crash, because I like to find the limits of myself and my bike.
It's possible that you will make it to old age without ever crashing, but if you enjoy finding the limits, the chances of that happening are greatly reduced.

[avgas]

Yep its guranteed, if not - your should swap your bike for a car cos your too damn safe

[Ixion]

I've been riding for around 18 months, and owned two bikes. In that time I've crashed 9 times. 4 on the road, and 5 on the track. I've never crashed anyone elses bike, and am not in a hurry to either.
Some will look at my record, and say I'm irresponsible, or reckless, or other. Those people won't be able to beat me around a track, and I don't give a shit how fast they are on the road. That's not where I go fast any more.
I have mates who have never crashed, and I applaud them for that. I'm prepared to crash, because I like to find the limits of myself and my bike.
It's possible that you will make it to old age without ever crashing, but if you enjoy finding the limits, the chances of that happening are greatly reduced.

Well, I don't think the ones on the track count. Track, off road, that's a different story. Racing and road riding are (or should be) quite different things. I've crashed too many times to count off road.

As to the "finding the limits" thing. Well, if you really are doing that, it's fairly trite to say that the track's the place for it. But, I'm not convinced that the phrase has any validity as far as crashes on the road go. People say that piously, but in reality what percentage of crashes on the road are the result of encountering the limits of the machine? Very few , the vast majority are due to either stupidity (what are the "limits" for overtaking on a blind bend ?); rider error (most corner crashes - the rider simply stuffs up); or simply sheer bad luck (sometimes, shit just happens). The crash caused by a low side because the tyres reached the limit of adhesion ? Not unknown, but rare.

If you mean the rider exceeding the limits of his competance, then that's just another way of saying that the rider is incompetant. Nor is crashing any use as a means of improving ones skill. All that you know after a crash is that you stuffed up. You don't know how to do it better.

A competant rider will improve his own skill, his "limits" , not by charging into a corner like a mad bull and crashing, but by going through it at a comfortable speed. Repeating the process until he is taking the corner smoothly and elegantly at that speed. Then increasing the speed a little, and a little more , untill the corner becomes ragged, and no longer smooth and fluid. Then altering slightly his technique, trying one thing and another until smoothness and fluidity are achieved at the higher speed. Rinse, lather, repeat, as often as needed. On the road, stop when you reach the point that you're not making progress. Wait and try again with more miles under your belt. That's the difference between the road and track, on the road you stop when it becomes ragged and you can't get it smooth. On the track, you don't stop you keep pushing it.

I say that using "pushing your limits" as an excuse for crashing (bear in mind I'm talking on the road here, not the track) is evasion . Bullshit in fact.

As for "being too damn safe".Well, that's a certain recipe for crashing. And almost certainly not being a biker for very many years. Cages are full of ex bikers who thought that way.

[HDTboy]

My road crashes were all from riding outside my capabilities. Take from that what you like. I did learn from each of them, and have not made the same mistakes again. I'd consider that a skill improvement.
While I see the merit in your way of approaching skill improvement, I'm young, and impatient. That is why I spend a lot of time and money at the track now.

[Ixion]

We are perhaps speaking of different purposes. You are seeking to find how to ride through corners fast, a subject upon which I am entirely unqualified to comment. I don't do fast. I am speaking of how to ride through corners safely.

One thing that beginners often take time to dscover , is that every corner has a "right" speed (it varies of course, for different bikes and riders, and somewhat with conditions). Taking the corner at a slower speed than that optimum will feel "unsafe", "scarey", as much as taking it at too fast a speed. Sometimes, the best advice for a beginner having trouble with corners, is "speed up, just a little" .When they do, the lines begin to smooth out, the rider does not have to work so hard at the corner.

[Balding Eagle]

I have been riding for a couple of years. I have not fallen off, taken a dive or binned it. I like to think that I am always on the lookout for danger. I agree with Ixion. But then I am older and understand what pain is and feels like and I have no intention or desire of experiencing it.

[bluninja]

Riding and driving since 1980. 1 Road Traffic Accident in 2001 almost killed me and wrote off my bike. Was it my fault? Yes! I made a whole series of bad choices and mistakes leadin up to the crash. Yes the tractor driver should not have pulled out in front of me, but if I'd made different choices his mistake would not have resulted in my crash.

I can (to a degree) control my own actions and choices and that's where I focus my efforts to keep myself safe on the road. Last night I rode home in freezing fog. At one point the fog was so thick that I couldn't see the cats eyes to my right when in the middle of the lane. I not only slowed but moved to the very left of my lane; sure enough a car at speed came wizzing passed me in my lane having not seen me till too late......but he was able to go past without taking me out because of my choice.

Some shit happens that we can't foresee, but stuff like people turning right across you, pulling out of junctions, or running red lights you can plan for and make your own choices.

[Bonez]

Had a few offs. Some my fault, others definately not. Funnilly enough the accident that caused me the most damage, broken tib and fib on my left leg, I didn't come off the bike at all, when the car T'boned me. Haven't had an off or accident for around 15 years or so now.

[bikemike]

Riding 23 years, and no accidents on the road.

Missed out on the off-road experience that appears to make some folks more durable, but have tried to recoup with some training. And fell off plenty there.

I don't believe everyone is out to get me and talking as if they are distorts the reality that we live or die in. In all my time I've only had one car 'try' and get me. What I would say is that it helps to imagine yourself invisible on the road. At the same time that approach can be far more frightening, but also allows you to be the master of all you survey, and not the victim on the run. it's an attitude.

Absolutely accept the statistics, but I'd rather leave the fruit loops to hang around boasting fatalistically from the tops, I seek out the long tail and aim to keep riding and maybe die quietly from old age.

How? Awareness, Responsibility for yourself and Training. Do you slow down and line up the brakes entering intersections? Do you leave the bike at home if you have a cold, or are tired? Do you ever drink a beer on a ride, 'cos everyone else is and one won't put you over the limit? Do you play music on your ride? Do you run through a check list each day you ride, use a mnemonic of some kind? Do you still think you can have fun on a bike if you take it seriously...? Choices.

However, I have had some close calls and it's probably easier to say those are inevitable. It's part of the learning process and part of the reason so many accidents happen so early in one's career. The most memorable of mine was a collection of mistakes, all of which I've learned from: My bike was in the shop for three weeks and I just picked it up. I was tired and cold, had a headache, it was dark, windy and raining and rush hour. I followed the traffic impatiently home and not 2 miles from home I pulled an overtake I shouldn't have attempted. Down the straight towards a right-hander that in daylight has plenty of visibility but car lights make it less certain at night. The road was greasy and I took one too many cars and on approaching the bend, which was adversely cambered by the way, made a decision that I would not get back in lane and get round the bend as the road was too slippery, I'd be breaking on the paint and so on. So I stood the bike up, pulled the brakes on and aimed at the kerb (beyond which was a bit of pavement and a hedge) I stopped about 4 inches from the kerb, with the engine running and the rush hour traffic quietly swishing past me on the sodden roads. Before me, transfixed in my headlights were two people, just at the point of laying wreaths at a white cross. Someone had died here just a few days before.

That's how it feels when it happens to you.

I was unfit to ride, didn't read the conditions, made lousy assumptions and lousy decisions AND I was almost home. Yes.

Motoring at up to 140kph (sanctioned) along something like the Little River / Akaroa road on an assessed ride with a UK Police rider (in the UK) also helped pick other holes in my riding, rather than worrying about speed. It also showed me how systematic riding is safer and faster than most of what we see on the roads.

I personally think my machine control is only average, partly because my off-road skills are lacking -- but at least I've tried to remedy that. However, I'm not convinced that focussing on machine handling is of the greatest benefit for most. I am convinced that the main reason I have stayed out of trouble is that I haven't gotten into it, and that that is because I now pay way more attention to what is going on around me than most road users. Much of what people refer to as road sense, common sense or a sixth sense on the road is actually the result of intentioned and studied awareness. It doesn't just come to you. You have to put the effort in. Sure it looks effortless, and some riders seem to have a guardian angel, or to know just what's going to happen next but it's not supernatural, it's the result of taking their riding seriously.

Hey, sorry long post, but by way of introduction also - my first post

[Chisanga]

Riding 23 years, and no accidents on the road.

Missed out on the off-road experience that appears to make some folks more durable, but have tried to recoup with some training. And fell off plenty there.

I don't believe everyone is out to get me and talking as if they are distorts the reality that we live or die in. In all my time I've only had one car 'try' and get me. What I would say is that it helps to imagine yourself invisible on the road. At the same time that approach can be far more frightening, but also allows you to be the master of all you survey, and not the victim on the run. it's an attitude.

Absolutely accept the statistics, but I'd rather leave the fruit loops to hang around boasting fatalistically from the tops, I seek out the long tail and aim to keep riding and maybe die quietly from old age.

How? Awareness, Responsibility for yourself and Training. Do you slow down and line up the brakes entering intersections? Do you leave the bike at home if you have a cold, or are tired? Do you ever drink a beer on a ride, 'cos everyone else is and one won't put you over the limit? Do you play music on your ride? Do you run through a check list each day you ride, use a mnemonic of some kind? Do you still think you can have fun on a bike if you take it seriously...? Choices.

However, I have had some close calls and it's probably easier to say those are inevitable. It's part of the learning process and part of the reason so many accidents happen so early in one's career. The most memorable of mine was a collection of mistakes, all of which I've learned from: My bike was in the shop for three weeks and I just picked it up. I was tired and cold, had a headache, it was dark, windy and raining and rush hour. I followed the traffic impatiently home and not 2 miles from home I pulled an overtake I shouldn't have attempted. Down the straight towards a right-hander that in daylight has plenty of visibility but car lights make it less certain at night. The road was greasy and I took one too many cars and on approaching the bend, which was adversely cambered by the way, made a decision that I would not get back in lane and get round the bend as the road was too slippery, I'd be breaking on the paint and so on. So I stood the bike up, pulled the brakes on and aimed at the kerb (beyond which was a bit of pavement and a hedge) I stopped about 4 inches from the kerb, with the engine running and the rush hour traffic quietly swishing past me on the sodden roads. Before me, transfixed in my headlights were two people, just at the point of laying wreaths at a white cross. Someone had died here just a few days before.

That's how it feels when it happens to you.

I was unfit to ride, didn't read the conditions, made lousy assumptions and lousy decisions AND I was almost home. Yes.

Motoring at up to 140kph (sanctioned) along something like the Little River / Akaroa road on an assessed ride with a UK Police rider (in the UK) also helped pick other holes in my riding, rather than worrying about speed. It also showed me how systematic riding is safer and faster than most of what we see on the roads.

I personally think my machine control is only average, partly because my off-road skills are lacking -- but at least I've tried to remedy that. However, I'm not convinced that focussing on machine handling is of the greatest benefit for most. I am convinced that the main reason I have stayed out of trouble is that I haven't gotten into it, and that that is because I now pay way more attention to what is going on around me than most road users. Much of what people refer to as road sense, common sense or a sixth sense on the road is actually the result of intentioned and studied awareness. It doesn't just come to you. You have to put the effort in. Sure it looks effortless, and some riders seem to have a guardian angel, or to know just what's going to happen next but it's not supernatural, it's the result of taking their riding seriously.

Hey, sorry long post, but by way of introduction also - my first post

Great first post and some really interesting reading in there. Welcome to the site

[Aitch]

That a crash is pretty likely, whether it's your fault or someone elses. Those who have ridden a brazilion kms and never crashed are probably a bit like the old fart wheezing that he's smoked for 50 years and never had cancer, so obviously smoking doesn't cause cancer....a statistical blip!
But you go out there, recognize that most other road users are trying to kill you (including other riders), get the best safety gear that you can afford, ride to the conditions and you may get away without a crash....or you may be skittled by the old fart (who has smoked for 50 years etc) while he's lighting the next smoke and not watching the road!