Is it really true that everybody crashes?

**bikemike** · 24th December 2006, 15:05

Hey thanks Chisanga. Been reading for a while, seeing who's who and all that, but thought I'd jump in on this one. Hope it helps.

most other road users are trying to kill you

Whilst clearly recognising the dangers out there, this is patently untrue, and doesn't help you work out how to survive.

There's two kinds of people in this world, those who believe there's two kinds of people and those who don't. I don't. It's not a war, it's a dance.

**Patch** · 24th December 2006, 15:18

Originally Posted by Aitch

That a crash is pretty likely, whether it's your fault or someone elses. Those who have ridden a brazilion kms and never crashed are probably a bit like the old fart wheezing that he's smoked for 50 years and never had cancer, so obviously smoking doesn't cause cancer....a statistical blip!
But you go out there, recognize that most other road users are trying to kill you (including other riders), get the best safety gear that you can afford, ride to the conditions and you may get away without a crash....or you may be skittled by the old fart (who has smoked for 50 years etc) while he's lighting the next smoke and not watching the road!

and yet so very true

Lost a childhood friend to a similar situation, sometimes the truth is cruel and harsh.

Ride safe

**Patch** · 24th December 2006, 15:21

Originally Posted by bikemike

There's two kinds of people in this world, those who believe there's two kinds of people and those who don't. I don't. It's not a war, it's a dance.

Perhaps you should watch Dr. Phil TV3 @ 1pm, very interesting person to listen too

Good vs. Evil as a dance

don't think so fred

**bikemike** · 24th December 2006, 19:49

I don't have a TV, and I don't know or care who or what Dr Phil is.

If you take the attitude that it's a war between you and 'them' then I reckon you increase the chances of it turning out like war. I wasn't referring to any bogeyman, or good versus evil nonsense, just playing with imagery, to describe how I play the game, as opposed to how others play the game.

Some go out to war, believe everyone is out to get them, that the others all drive 'cages' and that they will crash, sorry 'bin'. That just puts a street-talk spin on what is a serious and fatal business. Some still believe they are good and the 'others' are evil/bad. Most conveniently omit the fact that most motorcyclists drive cars also.

What I'm saying is that I don't accept that going out with the attitude that they are all out to kill you is a good enough plan, nor any kind of approximation for the truth. Talk to a pilot about how he/she mitigates the risks. You reckon they all go up thinking that hitting the deck unexpectedly is bound to happen. Probably not.

There's so much each of us can do to avoid situations that we might think are inevitable. Ride Safe, sure, of course, who would disagree? But what does that mean? Wear good gear and treat it like a battleground? That doesn't cut it for me.

How many times do you hear 'that bastard was trying to knock me off my bike'? Almost never I'd say. How many times do you hear 'I didn't see you'? Heaps, most of the time I reckon.

So, do we go out thinking they are all out to kill us, or that we are invisible?

Besides, that's just focussing on what they do to us. What about what we do to ourselves? a large chunk of the stats by the way, as in the example I gave.

**trumpy** · 24th December 2006, 20:42

There is an often repeated mantra on this site...."all cagers are out to kill you!"......
I think this is more of a perception than a reality that is passed on from biker to biker like a juicy piece of gossip. I might well be leading a charmed life but the statement does not fit my experience. While I have had the odd "experience" or two with car drivers, given the number I encounter on any ride I have been pleasantly surprised at how many will pull to the left to let me pass without having to cross the centre line and occaisionally, in the twisties, almost come to a stop to let myself and others carry on through. I always acknowledge their actions and am constantly surprised at how many bikers do not. Like I said, maybe I am lucky. Either that or the sight of a leather clad blimp on a canary yellow bike is too much for some drivers to have in their rear view mirrors, or maybe they just need a good laugh.......("hey kids, take a look at this!!....)

Just a few points from the article mentioned in my last post in this thread;(please bear in mind this is a discussion Titled "Are Car Drivers The Problem?" and is in reference to the involvement of cagers in biker deaths i.e they are all out to kill you).
"Sussex Police Inspector Simon Labbett spent many years trying to understand why bikers die........His research tracked down what kinds of bike were involved in all 55 fatal accidents in Sussex between 2000 and 2003.....of the 55 fatalities, 37 occurred on sportbikes, 11 on sports tourers, two on commuters, one on a tourer and one on a retro.....and in more than 9 out of 10 of these deaths, rider error - usually excessive speed - was the main cause of the crash.............The reasons why car drivers take the rap are easy enough to understand even if they are flawed....most bike collisions happen in built up areas and those are indeed someone else's fault - a driver emerging from a side road and the familiar "Sorry mate, I didn't see you" story. However most fatal accidents happen in 60mph limits on open roads. Failure to see the bike (as a reason for the accident) goes down dramatically and rider error becomes much more significant....."
Food for thought for all of us, methinks.

**Mr. Peanut** · 24th December 2006, 23:02

Originally Posted by SwanTiger

Essentially it comes down to your ability to understand yourself.

There is the EPR Paradox which describes the work of Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen which led to much subsequent, and still on-going, research.

The best way to describe it (and demonstrate my point, which I will eventually get to) is to present two observables, position and momentum. You can put a subatomic particle into a state of well-defined momentum, but then you cannot know its position. Conversely, you can put a particle in a definite position, but then its momentum is completely ill-defined.

Regardless of the various arbitrarily confines, you can never know the true value of both.

This is applicable to motorcycling in the sense you can either control the physical, medical and financial implications of an accident; Or control the circumstances that would cause an accident through advanced training and increased awareness.

Point you have the ability to define the outcome of any situation regardless, however there will always be uncertainty. You can lessen this by quite simply being a good rider. Ixion is an example of someone who can control and find the maximal sets of commuting observables (i.e. keep his shit togeather in a tricky situation).

Yes, I am bored. But think about it.

Science communication 101. KISS.

Life is random, ride like a nana.

**86GSXR** · 27th December 2006, 20:23

After 30 years of riding, I have had my fair share of offs, nearly all of them on off road bikes, both on and off the road - if that makes any sense. Fortunately, none of them were particulary serious and nearly all occurred during that vital earlier phase of gaining experience, getting to know your own, and your bikes limits. Some were unavoidable ie, logs on the track, oil on the road, gravel, not being seen, and others were totally avoidable, and caused by not driving to the conditions, excessive speed, and inexperience.

My experience has taught me to never take anything associated with bikes for granted, the vital importance of knowing your limits (which will differ from day to day) and to continually work on your situational awareness everytime you put on a helmet and take to the road. Apart from the sheer joy associated with having all of your senses so vitally alive when immersed in the biking environment, it goes without saying that it's an environment that has the potential to cause us harm if we dont prepare for and respect every time we enter it.

It's impossible to say that one will never fall off, my last one was five years ago now (low speed gravel trap thank god) but you can minimise the chances of damage by using the best quality protective gear you can buy, keep your bike maintained, work on it yourself - get to know it, and most importantly, yourself. Listen to that sixth sense that tells you you are about to, or have already moved beyond the limit of your experience. Don't move up to a more powerful machine until you are ready, you will know when the time is right. Learn how to corner, there are some great articles on counter steering on here! Above all, enjoy the privilege of being on two wheels. Hope this helps, cheers.

**Toaster** · 27th December 2006, 20:38

Originally Posted by Chisanga

I have no first hand knowledge of this topic at all so I would be interested if people could state if they have crashed, how 'serious' it was and whether it occured in, say, their first three months of riding their bike.

Badly broke two bones in my foot, going all of about 20/40 kmh and almost came off. Stamped my foot down after losing traction in bizarre circumstances. Very painful and learned a great deal from my error.

Dont ride a bike beyond your skill level when tired and when its been frosty on the road!

**NighthawkNZ:Me** · 27th December 2006, 20:41

If you are not in the right frame of mind... don't ride this day for your mind is trying to tell you something

**Chisanga** · 6th February 2007, 21:10

Well I thought I better update this in lieu of my accident today.

It may not be true that EVERYONE who has ever ridden a motorbike crashes but I think you need to be damn lucky, skillful, and somewhat blessed to avoid ever crashing.

I came off after almost two months of riding and just over 3000km, I hope this will be my only accident but it would be ignorant and foolish of me to assume that I will never come off again.

I'm just going to keep practising and learning and by preparing myself the best I can I plan on minimising the effects of the next "incident" that befalls me whilst out on the roads.

Stay safe and enjoy everyone

James

**DEATH_INC.** · 6th February 2007, 21:21

Take it from me, you will crash, sometimes often. Shit happens, just be ready for it when it does and you'll be fine.

**RC1** · 6th February 2007, 21:22

ironic you started this thread, now you have the experience first hand im sure you did your best to the avoid accident but sometimes its not entirely possible, glad your not badly hurt ,

**Chisanga** · 6th February 2007, 21:31

Originally Posted by RCTL

ironic you started this thread, now you have the experience first hand im sure you did your best to the avoid accident but sometimes its not entirely possible, glad your not badly hurt ,

We have the "Scottish Rider" to thank for pointing out the above mentioned irony to me and provoking my re-visit to this thread