Question on counter-steering

[Ixion]

This is Keith Code on the subject of countersteering. He points out that your body alone dosent make any difference to the direction.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

Whilst this is true, I have found that since I have started consiously adjusting my lean in to the corner rather than out of the corner my speed has increased. On a fave set of corners I used to scrape pegs at 60kph, now I take the same corner at 70kph and still have room to spare.

Bear in mind though that there is no free lunch. Moving weight inward will mean a higher speed for the same angle of lean (as you observe). But the price is a higher sideways force through the tyre, which means a greater risk of breakaway and lowside. Not really an issue nowdays for people with sporty tyres, they are so sticky, but it can be something to consider for those using knobblies on the road. (then again of course, weight outward will reduce sliding force but risk rolling over the edge of the knobs. Sigh. So many variables) Or, those on small bikes with plastic tyres like the FXR150.

[James Deuce]

This is Keith Code on the subject of countersteering. He points out that your body alone dosent make any difference to the direction.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

Whilst this is true, I have found that since I have started consiously adjusting my lean in to the corner rather than out of the corner my speed has increased. On a fave set of corners I used to scrape pegs at 60kph, now I take the same corner at 70kph and still have room to spare.

See point 1c. I always select my angle of lean from my steering input, not a vague "leany over type feeling thingy."

I was trying to avoid Keith Code because he's far too complex for someone just starting down this path.

I've condensed his stuff in my post up the page.

Pointing your shoulder has the effect of generating a positive push steering input while you are getting used to active participation in countersteering.

Read Keith Code at your peril. If you are not a person given to Metaphysics you will be confused or overwhelmed or both almost instantly.

[bluninja]

Read Keith Code at your peril. If you are not a person given to Metaphysics you will be confused or overwhelmed or both almost instantly.

I love the way he explains each word he uses as if the readers are morons; but then it was written with americans in mind.

Nice simple explanation Jim.

Only things I would offer in addition is get yourself in position on the bike, before you start your turn, when it's upright.

[pritch]

Sounds like you are riding like a dirt rider,pushing the bike down lower than your body...I often do that on tight corners.

I used to do that too and since it was the opposite of what should have been happening it was a minor worry, but now I have the answer.

Last weekend I re-read TOTW2 and found this problem is discussed therein in detail. You place your weight on the outside foot peg which should make you move your body with the bike. This also helps the bike remain stable in bumpy corners.

It can be a bit difficult to start with; pushing the left bar and weighting the right peg etc, but if you weight the peg just before you make the steering input you should be fine.

Sometimes, in the early stages of cementing this new method in, I'd be momentarily confused as to which peg to weight when approaching a bend so I decided if in doubt weight both.

[Crisis management]

I wonder if we try to hard on this counter steering, body position stuff?
Counter steering is wonderful and a natural progression in learnt skills but I feel we always seem to try and combine it with shifting body position as well when it works fine if you just do the sack of potatoes act on the seat.

I move all over my bikes and ride a varied combination of styles on either the road or dirt bike dependant on conditions, level of boredom etc but it works just as well for 90% of the time just sitting on the bike vertical to the bikes axis and letting the whole lot lean together.

As Jim2 says, Keith Code is complicated, and surely we should just give advice about getting the bike in the right place on the road and smoothly cornering rather than complicating it with the Kama Sutra of sprots bike fashion?

As a rider progresses it will make sense to move your body around but at the start what we want is a confident entry, apex and exit from the corner and to achieve this let the guy concentrate on sitting in one position and aclimatising to the sensation of lean.

Right, time for my afternoon nap.....

[AllanB]

RELAX - chew some gum while you ride, it will take your mind off over thinking each corner.

Enter at a low- medium speed - if it all looks good you can power on mid corner.

Try sticking the inside knee out a wee bit

RELAX

[James Deuce]

Chewing gum while riding can be fatal.

Chewing gum lodged in an airway can be a bastard to remove, whether it got lodged there by a pothole, or an accident, it doesn't matter when you can't breathe and people can't clear your airway.

[Ixion]

It's a bit like the difference between sex education and shagging , really. Works better and lot more fun if you just get on with the practical stuff, rather than getting all tied up in the theory

[XP@]

The Keith Code quote was intended to show this:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

Which is the no bs bike which shows that leaning alone does not do anything.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/video-clips/nobs.mov

This is not what is asked in the original question which is how not to feel strange leaning in to a high speed bend.

Is there a page anywhere which shows the differences between leaning "in", "with" and "out" of a corner?

I have been taught that on the road you should lean "in" or "with" because we are helping the physics og the corner. I remember that at first making the change to leaning in was strange, it went against everything i had taught myself. But now the reverse would be true, it just took a little practice.

[James Deuce]

The main issues with leaning feeling odd is to do with not looking through the corner and not keeping your head level with the horizon. It doesn't matter what method of body position you use, if you lean your head over and look directly in front of the bike it will freak you out.

[Naki]

When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, countersteering is a method of initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually via the handlebars, in the opposite direction. While necessary at all speeds, the need to countersteer becomes more noticeable as speed increases.

A bike can negotiate a curve only when it leans towards the inside of the turn, at an angle appropriate for the velocity and the sharpness of the turn. Otherwise centrifugal force will tip the bike and rider over towards the outside of the curve. The transition of riding in a straight line to negotiating a turn is a process of leaning the bike into the turn.

If a rider wants to turn to the right, he first throws the bike off balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line, but the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this straight line. As gravity then tips the bike over to the right, the front wheel is steered into the curve, and the curve is negotiated with the proper inward lean. This process usually requires little physical effort, because the geometry (rake and trail on motorcycles) of the steering of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front wheel has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean.

At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are made in balancing the bike.

Once in a turn, countersteering is again required to make changes to its shape. The only way to decrease the radius at the same speed is to increase the lean angle, and the only way to increase the lean angle, is again to momentarily steer opposite to the direction of the curve. To the untrained, this can be extremely counter-intuitive.

To exit a turn, countersteer by momentarily steering further in the direction of the turn. This tilts the bike back upright.

Countersteering is indispensable for bike steering. Most people are not consciously aware that they employ countersteering when riding their bike. Their body has learned to include the well timed countersteering jolt. They may have learned to do so while learning to ride a bicycle in childhood. Often people simply assume that the steering of a bike is just like the steering of a car. Their subconscious balance skills know better.

[Motu]

Chuck Norris does not countersteer - the turn leans into his bike....

[bluninja]

At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are made in balancing the bike.

I'll disagree on that point. On a stationary bike if I turn to the left and then set off (say I'm doing a U turn) I turn tightly to the left. Myself and the bike are still subject to gravity and centripetal forces but do not require countersteering to initiate the turn.

When countersteering 2 forces (gyroscopic precession? and interia) cause the bike to move onto the side of the tyres, where camber thrust provides the turning moment. At low speeds both these forces are very very low, else you would position the bike to turn left, accelerate away and immediately fall (and turn) to the right.

All this physics stuff goes over my head...really.

In terms of position on the bike through a corner....make sure your weight is primarily on the outside peg, and less weight on the seat. This lowers your centre of gravity as the point where your body weight acts is now lower on the bike than the seat. If you weight the inside peg your body weight and any leverage applied is pushing the bike downwards till you either fall off the edge of the tyres, or your peg digs in with your full weight on it(this is at the extreme). Weighting the outer peg does the opposite.

Also if you weight the inside peg and fall off there is more chance of trapping your foot/leg under the bike than if it's free to allow a graceless step off and slide.

[Motu]

Countersteering is ingrained and natural to all of us - it's part of our balancing act to stay upright.

I've had a few sidecars and never had a problem riding them,I knew how to ride one in the first 100 metres,some people have problems - and my wife is one.A sidecar is set up with a small amount of leanout,this is to counteract the pull of the sidecar and road camber.When my wife gave riding my child/adult outfit a go as she went down the drive she kept turning right and crashing into the fence bordering the driveway.No matter how I explaned it to her she kept vearing off to the right - she was countersteering to bring the bike upright,no way would her subconcious mind allow her to ride the bike leaning to the right.

Oh,and weighting the pegs doesn't lower the centre of gravity.

[bluninja]

Oh,and weighting the pegs doesn't lower the centre of gravity.

Busted

Quite right...though depending on the position of your seat and pegs, weighting the pegs may alter the horizontal position of CG and thus effect the handling. Only way to lower CG is to crouch down on the tank or bend at the middle. Now my urban myth is exposed and I've been busted I won't use it anymore.