Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

**Sketchy_Racer** · 14th January 2007, 16:26

Originally Posted by Idleidoldill

7. No, the class belongs to ANYONE whose bike meets the specification. If we were to get down to brass tacks on that complaint then 125's would be kicked out too.

125s arent racing the F3 class. They just share track time. And SHOULD have a delayed start.

Also, its not our (125 riders that is) choice to be in F3. If people asked me if i would stick to my own class, then hell yes!

also another thing to think of is, 125s a so-call 'higher-up-the-food-chain' class than F3, so it could be said that F3 bikes are in OUR class??

I dont mind being in F3, so long as there is a nice big gap between race starts, and motards (or any other bike for that matter) dont hold us up

**Hitcher** · 14th January 2007, 16:37

Keep it on topic, guys. If people disagree with you that's no excuse for personal attacks. The discussion so far has been pretty good. I will have no qualms in relegating unnecessary crap to the Drivel Thread.

**TonyB** · 14th January 2007, 19:25

Good call Mr H

given the fact that F3 in general is such a hot topic for debate, with the whole SV650 vs 400's thing etc, maybe its time to admit that there is a fairly wide range of equipment being used and run staggered starts with seperate results for each class.

**Sketchy_Racer** · 14th January 2007, 19:28

Originally Posted by TonyB

Good call Mr H

given the fact that F3 in general is such a hot topic for debate, with the whole SV650 vs 400's thing etc, maybe its time to admit that there is a fairly wide range of equipment being used and run staggered starts with seperate results for each class.

Yep, you got it mate!

that way you can keep 90% of different classes out of the way for 90% of the race

Works for me

**Crasherfromwayback** · 14th January 2007, 19:29

Originally Posted by TonyB

Good call Mr H

given the fact that F3 in general is such a hot topic for debate, with the whole SV650 vs 400's thing etc, maybe its time to admit that there is a fairly wide range of equipment being used and run staggered starts with seperate results for each class.

I believe that the whole SV vs 400 thing is about to be revisited innit?

**Sketchy_Racer** · 14th January 2007, 19:31

Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback

I believe that the whole SV vs 400 thing is about to be revisited innit?

Oh god, lets not go there

**Crasherfromwayback** · 14th January 2007, 19:34

Originally Posted by RG100!!

Oh god, lets not go there

Doh....sorry mate.....but to really put my foot in it then (again).....they need to.....

**Sketchy_Racer** · 14th January 2007, 20:34

Yeah mate, they need to,

But we're having trouble keeping the debate of motards on track.

Adding that to the situation..... well, ya know

**Bykmad** · 14th January 2007, 21:07

Lets get back on track here. You ride an off road bike, so compete in an off road class at ROAD RACE meetings. Road racers stick their knee out, not the whole bloody leg. If you want to Road Race, go Road Racing on a road race bike, If you want to Motard, go Motarding, but dont expect to take your Off Road bike into road race classes. Imagine how the MX boys would feel if someone mounted a ZXR400 engine in a KX chassis and then got in the way of all the big boys at a Championship MX event. The racing lines would be so different, you could relate it to the F3 versus 125 GP debate. Pain in the arse for the MX boys, but not as potentially damaging as racing a wide handlebarred off roader, with a totally different riding style, at a street circuit.
I can hear it now, as the coroner says, Why were these two totally different motorcycle classes allowed to compete together. The riding styles are markedly different, there by causing the potential for catastrophe.
Motards are great. In the Motard class. Leave them there!!!!!
Think about it. The sport we all LOVE is dangerous enough without forcing the Motard riding style riding into Road Race classes. Lets eliminate the dangers we can, and move forward. Motards have their own class, Leave them there and leave the Road Race guys to do their own thing.
If we want a cross class challenge, lets go back to Tim Gibbes Golden Handlebars challenge. If you dont remember, it was a one day event that took in REAL Motard Racing at Manfeild.

**Crasherfromwayback** · 14th January 2007, 21:17

Originally Posted by Bykmad

Lets get back on track here. You ride an off road bike, so compete in an off road class at ROAD RACE meetings. Road racers stick their knee out, not the whole bloody leg. If you want to Road Race, go Road Racing on a road race bike, If you want to Motard, go Motarding, but dont expect to take your Off Road bike into road race classes. Imagine how the MX boys would feel if someone mounted a ZXR400 engine in a KX chassis and then got in the way of all the big boys at a Championship MX event. The racing lines would be so different, you could relate it to the F3 versus 125 GP debate. Pain in the arse for the MX boys, but not as potentially damaging as racing a wide handlebarred off roader, with a totally different riding style, at a street circuit.
I can hear it now, as the coroner says, Why were these two totally different motorcycle classes allowed to compete together. The riding styles are markedly different, there by causing the potential for catastrophe.
Motards are great. In the Motard class. Leave them there!!!!!
Think about it. The sport we all LOVE is dangerous enough without forcing the Motard riding style riding into Road Race classes. Lets eliminate the dangers we can, and move forward. Motards have their own class, Leave them there and leave the Road Race guys to do their own thing.
If we want a cross class challenge, lets go back to Tim Gibbes Golden Handlebars challenge. If you dont remember, it was a one day event that took in REAL Motard Racing at Manfeild.

Some valid points there....but like I've said in earlier posts.....I don't think that all motard racers need be tared with the same brush. They (motard racers) needn't put legs out and take silly lines at 'normal' tracks....they simply chose to do so.

So I think they need to be told either ride in your own (motard) class if you want to ride like that...or 'road race' and by all means join us......I never once had a complaint as to the way I was riding my KX 500 years ago....well before the whole 'motard' thing......

**Ixion** · 14th January 2007, 21:19

But is not the entire definition of a motard that it IS a road bike?

Granted , it has an off road ancestry.

But would you argue that my XT600 is not a road bike , cos of its 21" front wheel? Or even the little SRX250 I had, which had the engine from the XT250. Same with the SRX600, those are road bikes.

And the converse- back before it became big money, almost all MX , trials and other off road bikes, were the manufacturers 350 or 500 single road bike (AJS, Ariel, etc), converted for off road. It would have been absurd to say that they could not compete off road because their engines derived from raod bikes.

**Crasherfromwayback** · 14th January 2007, 21:28

Originally Posted by Ixion

But is not the entire definition of a motard that it IS a road bike?

Granted , it has an off road ancestry.

But would you argue that my XT600 is not a road bike , cos of its 21" front wheel? Or even the little SRX50 I had, which had the engine from the XT250. Same with the SRX600, those are road bikes.

And the converse- back before it became big money, almost all MX , trials and other off road bikes, were the manufacturers 350 or 500 single road bike (AJS, Ariel, etc), converted for off road. It would have been absurd to say that they could not compete off road because their engines derived from raod bikes.

Absolutely with you 100% Ixion!

people now are freaking about the whole 'motard' thing....but fuck....only because so many people are now doing it....I don't buy the 'big wide bars' are a danger etc.....and the people asking what would we (motard riders) think if someone stuffed a road bike engine into a moto-x frame and came racing with us.....well I say bring it on! Honda years ago made a highly trick twin cyl two stroke m-x bike....only to find it was shite....what about Steve McQueen doing the famous leap.....on a Triumph.....bring it on!

**gav** · 14th January 2007, 22:26

Yes the F3 rules are to be reviewed, the SV's are to run to much tighter rules, and the 400's will have to remain as 400's, currently you can run a big bore 450cc "400". After watching the Nationals from Levels today, the motards arent a problem in F3. Yes, there were a few out there, but the nature of this track, doesnt really cause them them to ride with there foot out. However the fastest F3 bike out there was a YZF450 engineered special, with 17" wheels, is it classified as a motard? (Jason Eastons Tigcraft 450)

**idleidolidyll** · 15th January 2007, 12:22

Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback

Well here's a good point for ya then mate.....I've raced against Slight, Holden and Toomey....and none of them would think it's a good idea or safe to slow mid corner!

I've only got a small chest, as I'm only a small guy....but my nuts are as big as my mouth!

and i've raced against most of the 'names' too although some different ones like Crafar, Anderson, Williams (the first), Haldane etc. I've SEEn some of them slow mid corner on the last lap to fuck up the other guy. However, i'm not gonna play my nuts are bigger than yours. I'd rather talk about the thread topic.
Unfortunately, at a glance, it seems that nobody has taken up the challenge and replied directly to my summation of the arguments for/against motards in the formula classes.

I'd be really disappointed if MNZ changed the class format WITHOUT a reasoned debate with clear concise pros and cons.

BTW crasher, I've probably raced against you too depending on class. I changed from MX in the mid 80's and raced part time for the next 10 years between business trips.

I've always been of the opinion that successful motorcycle racers have what is described (by outsiders) as "Massive Egos".
I reckon that without these, we are not winners. The ego's as described might seem that way from the outside but in fafcdt it is just self belief and as a good racer knows, much of this game is about confidence in your own ability.
My father taught me that since I was as athletic as anyone and debatably intelligent, there was no reason I should settle for 2nd best. He was right, winning is often about determination and self belief even though it is also about practice, fitness and setup.

Perhaps that's the trouble on this board? All those egos bashing against each other. I know I have one. Even though I stopped racing a decade ago, I still go out on my road bike and regularly kick arse, often as the 'undergod' (no spelling mistake). A 640 supermoto vs a 999 Ducati, Triumph Speed triple or R1? Can't be done they say................but I used to do it often.

Lastly, if I WAS racing today I'd welcome the opportunity to race against a supermot and would also relish the idea of racing a supermoto against streetbikes. I'm not the type to do the big moto slide into corners but instead use the ability of a motard to take any line and even change direction mid corner.
Far from complaining I'd be chuffed to have more riders behind me.......................................

idle out

**FROSTY:Me** · 15th January 2007, 13:07

To me its pretty clearcut. Motards ridden in any other class are fucking dangerous.plain and simple.
In essence its the same argument as running 125gp and F3 bikes together-theres a bloody good reason they dont.
Im out there with them and they take totally different lines to a road bike.
The three tards out at levels were ALL roadracers and rode in roadrace not tard style.
Ie the guy on the 650 honda had his knee/leg ankle on the ground rouund turn 4 and 5.
As a compromise Id say the only way Id want tards on the track withme is if they keep their feet on the pegs at all times