SCU Last night - food for thought

[BigB]

Hi Guys,

Just wondering how many of you saw SCU (serious Crash Unit) on TV2 last night.

Was mostly about a 18 year old guy on a suzuki bandit who ran into the back of a truck on Bush Rd north shore and killed himself.

A really tragic accident as at the end of all the investigation the cause of his death was put down to him not using his front brakes at all.

The guy was in a 70kph zone on a corner, the truck was turning across the road and he ran into the back tryes. There was a 29m skid mark from the rear tyre but no indication that the front bakes had been used. A police bike was used to re create the accident and it was worked out that with the use of front braking he should have stoped within 15m.

The guy had raced cars in europe and was a good CAR diver, but at the time of the accident his car and been impounded for 28 days for speeding. So he got himself a bike and hadn't been riding for very long.

It really shows the value of doing a basic motorbike riding course for learners, maybe then he would have known that on a bike 70% of your braking is done with your front brakes.

any thoughts

[Duke of Rogan]

I didnt see that part of SCU, came in late and caught the 2nd half.

but, as a rider who has only just got his 2nd bike 2 months ago after a serious incident about 4 years ago, it hasn't taken me long to remember "don't touch the rear brake too much!"

during my first few rides after getting the bike I found the back wheel locking up too often when stopping quickly in heavy traffic, even though I know the front brake is much more effective.

but I guess if your are completely new to bikes, and your first close call requires heavy braking, your brain is going to tell you to slam on the picks with your feet (espically if used to high speed car braking)

my rear brakes have an annoying squeal that I don't think I'll fix in a hurry 'cos it reminds me that I'm using them.

[MikeL]

Yeah I saw the whole programme. Very tragic and avoidable accident. Several things contributed to the death, including the environment (70 kph zone with inadequate visibility), and most prominently the rider's inexperience (as a car driver it would have been instinctive to put the foot on the brake for an emergency stop - I did it a couple of times and was lucky not to go down). But there was also an element of sheer bad luck - from the computer animation it would seem that he came off and slid along the road before hitting the truck wheel; a foot or so to the left or right and he would have gone straight under the truck and out the other side possibly without serious injury. However judging from the sneaker shown on the roadway it doesn't look as if he was wearing much protective gear apart from the helmet. What surprised me was that by all accounts he was not exceeding the speed limit - just shows how we prejudge people. As soon as I heard that he was a bit of a petrolhead, having raced cars in Indonesia I think it was, I jumped to the conclusion that he would have been speeding. At least I judged one thing right - as soon as they mentioned about the 70 kph speed limit having been a factor, I predicted that this stretch of Bush Rd will be down to 50 before long. And so it will be.

[Slim]

I saw it too.

My only thought to those already expressed is that emergency braking obviously needs to be addressed better in the "skills & handling" courses learner riders have to take before they can sit the written & aural learners test.

And definitely to encourage learner riders to take further training (and perhaps bring down the cost of it, so that more will be inclined to do it).

[Kwaka-Kid]

hmmm... Well i didnt manage to catch SCU unfortunatly, but understand what has happen from what you guys have told me.. my thoughts are as follows

i believe in TOTW it says most new riders tend to prefer the rear brake because when using the front brake the whole front end of the bike dips, which apparently they dont like?  Its understandable but surely, this guy had a motorcycle? i.e he would have (im not sure when he got his licence and what was in it then) done the motorcycle specialist questions, where you must know that 3/4 of your braking power is on your front brakes.  or somthing like that anyway, but what im trying to say with that is that surly if its printed in their you would tend to believe it? yeah? -because thats how i taught myself, from coming off old trail bikes i was always touch to hardly ever touch the front brake, ans basically just engine brake and rear slide, because in slippery mud etc its hard to control a front slide which happens to easy, then it is to handle a rear slide (your doing it half the blimmin time).  Its also where i learnt about counter-steering come to think of it its written in the road code believe it or not.  So my question is, did this guy have a licence? or was it an old one?

Its really unfortunate and sad to hear about, and hopefully many other soon-to-be-riders will have watched SCU and realised this.   - oh and lastly, was it wet?

Such a shame, on the accident note we had a motorcyclist come in to work (auck hospital) luckily with only 2 broken legs (i think) @ like midnight, after randomly deciding to throw a pillion on and have some fun in the middle of the night in the rain!  slide off and hit a power pole... also a recent rider.. possibly rear brake problem? not sure, i wasnt the one talking to him, but some definate education is needed.  Maybe @ the LTSA after they say you passed ur licence (Learners) they could sit you down and just have a breif education session? i dunno, or free sessions once a week?

[Dave]

I dont think this guy had a bike license at all,also that piece of bush rd is 50km/h.Its just down from north harbour hire and during the day it is a very busy congested piece of rd.
I feel sorry for the poor driver of the truck.

[Slim]

Originally posted by Dave
I dont think this guy had a bike license at all,also that piece of bush rd is 50km/h.Its just down from north harbour hire and during the day it is a very busy congested piece of rd.
I feel sorry for the poor driver of the truck.

He had a motorcycle licence, although I'm not certain what level.

[Nouseforaname]

My personel opinion is that more needs to be done to teach new riders about the effects of riding a bike. I went and got my licence with no experience at all and instantly i was on a bike. Nobody told me about what happens when u hit a corner too fast and hit the front brakes, as a result i highsided and ended up in the forest just outa whangamata, luckily managed to crawl away without too many serious injuries.... and this was 2 weeks after getting my licence. At the end of the day nobody was to blame for that accident except me, but i damn well wish i had that knowledge before hand. All in all, u learn from ur mistakes, but on a bike there is some very very simple things that u can do wrong and end up in the shit. Just my thoughts :-) Then again i am pissed and listening to Guns n Roses.

[Marmoot]

I didn't watch the SCU.
But, the guy was a very close friend of mine.

He does have experience on a bike (aprilia RS125 on racetrack fun ride only).

That Bandit he got was only 1 day old. He got it from a north shore dealer a day before that tragic event. I suspect there is something wrong with the brake (since I have met similar problems with 250 bandits brake before). They are a bit on the weak side, and not to mention suspension problem.

But, I also believe rider factor accounts for most of the cause. He was a reckless naughty boy, if you want to say it that way. He was actually a good guy, but a bit reckless in riding/driving/living sense.

Well, nothing else to say, really. Except that that thing hopefully serves as a reminder (especially to younger and beginner riders) that we are not ten-foot-tall and bulletproof in our little closet we call helmets.

If all else, I hope his death does some good merits in reminding us.

[andy1]

yes i saw scu, one thing. how did they know that he didnt use the front brake? (did i miss something) can they test the brake pads or something??

[Redstar]

well there has to be a logical rational for having two discs on the front and one rear?
its unwritten law that most of the braking is on the front?
but it was not always that way. yonks ago the back brake was built to do the major work and the front to feather out the stop.
and if you debate the rule with an older classic biker they might even convince you to try it. but then bike only really did 100klm/hr and had car tyres on the back. its common knowledge with modern sports bikes that the rear brake is for feathering control of the skid and the front brakes are the main show.
its all down to science I think.
I stole a 750 CBR (sort of borrowed) once and it had no front brake and pulling up on he rear only was shall we say interesting!

[Slim]

Originally posted by andy1
yes i saw scu, one thing. how did they know that he didnt use the front brake? (did i miss something) can they test the brake pads or something??

There was only one skid mark from the rear wheel. If the front wheel had locked up too, there would have been two skid marks (and probably no accident to investigate in the first place).

The other thing was that there was a wear patch on the rear tyre from where it locked up, but no such wear on the front tyre at all.

They also did skid testing with a police motorcycle, which would have clarified these points, along with the shortened stopping distance if the rider had used both brakes.

[Kwaka-Kid]

hmm, well he might not understand this.. because he has a point, you dont need to lockup the front brake to be braking hard on it.  but i guess they test from any reminense of rubber in the tarmac generally inline with the rear skid i you know what i mean, also they can workout how he hit the truck, and that with some front braking maybe the slide would have been different... im not sure myself actually but yeh.

And marmoot, fair enough in bringing up the point that the brakes/suspension could have been faulty, altho i find that very hard to believe... just come outta a bike shop? without front brakes? also SURELY that wasnt the first corner/time to slow down he had come to right? like surly coming to a red light etc he would have at least been tempted to try and see what that right hand lever does? and if it did nothing take it back or somthing? its only logical.

and about the suspension, i dont think itd b shoddy @ all, all i can say is i ride around on a 1978 gs1000 atm with next to no forl oil in left fork and who knows how much in right fork, it literally bottoms out nearly each time you use the front brakes and possibly if you enterd a corner hard too.  But i take this for weekend thrashs (okay only 1 so far thats been able to call a thrash) and i dont come off in corners.  I have crap all experience myself and dont consider myself a particularily good rider, but despite all this i do live and i am quite sure even the worst example of a Bandit 1200 out there with the most poked forks is likly to be better then the GS and many other old bikes that we have fun on.  I purely put the crash down to rider error - and the resulting loss of life down to very bad luck (having a truck there and all).

But yes, it certainly has made me think, and keep @ the snail pace i typically keep at on the street.

[Racey Rider]

I saw the programe. And it did seem he didn't use the front brake from the tests they did. I agree, it's hard to tell if he did or not, as you can but a lot of pressure on that front brake without it leaving tyre marks on the road. They seemed to think he was traveling at 70k (which was the speed limit there at that time). Which was jugded by the leagth of the back tyre skid, but that presumes that he didn't touch the front brake doesn't it? He could have been going a lot faster than that, and use the front brake as well, which slowed him down enough to make it look like, 70k and only the back brake used. Does that sound like a possability?
Who knows! In that sort of situation, one might think that a inexperienced rider, if he did use the front brake, would grab such a handful that it would lock up the front wheel as well, and start the fall off slide process earlyer.

[andy1]

yes, i think he did use the front brake but didnt lock it up, and was going faster than 70km. and then he didnt think he would stop so he used the rear brake and locked it up. we will never know! it happened about 1 and a half years ago. so they have changed the speed limit there.