Special pools for different religious beliefs

[Paul in NZ]

Meh, perhaps I'm just grumpy because it's hard enough to get some un-crowded laps in at my local pool as it is....

No - you have a perfectly valid complaint. However it requires that enough of you in the same situation organise yourselves and seek some remedy. If you want to reserve a portion of the pool for your exclusive use it's just a question of how much it will cost. No one (and certainly not the Muslim community) has claimed they want anything for free.

[Fub@r]

There are already closed sessions in public pools so 'special' groups can train / practice whatever - makes no difference at all to me if i can't use the pool because of a mob of muslim chicks or a flotilla of kayakers does it?

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I don't have a problem with closing public pools for special sessions. This is apparently what has been happening in this case with the muslim women, but very few actually turn up for it. Given the low attendance/demand there is no justification for the use of public funds to build a seperate exclusive pool is there?

[Paul in NZ]

There is no avoiding the "slippery slope". Britain, France, Germany, in fact most of Europe and now Australia are struggling with how to deal with the issue of recent immigrants who don't speak English as their first language and who wish to retain their traditional beliefs and cultures within a population that has become increasingly diverse, liberal and catholic (note the use of a small c).

While an expectation is that new immigrants will integrate into their new country, it is becoming increasingly easy for them not to do so. That is their choice. However each generation that is born into the new environment will be more "integrated" than the one that preceded it. Time heals most things.

Yup - I thinks its about the biggest issue the next generation will face and one that we face here too with PI immigrants. (Certainly the Maori people are struggling with those Pakeha mongrels not adapting to the local fashions)

Hate speaches on either side won't change a damned thing though. Perhaps people have to realise that some cultures don't exist well together?

[Paul in NZ]

Maybe my post wasn't clear. I don't have a problem with closing public pools for special sessions. This is apparently what has been happening in this case with the muslim women, but very few actually turn up for it. Given the low attendance/demand there is no justification for the use of public funds to build a seperate exclusive pool is there?

Exactly and any Public figure in a democracy would see themselves out of office very quickly. However I see no harm in a special interest group floating the idea publicly for debate. They made no demands - they are just testing the waters of public opinion much like anyone else would.

[cynna]

why curtain off a part of a public pool just for them. i dont want anyone looking at my white hairy legs at the pool. put up with it or fuck off

[Pixie]

Why don't they convert to Judaism?
Same fairy tail,different story teller

[Paul in NZ]

Why don't they convert to Judaism?

Hmm - all insipred now...

Close off the pool for em and afterwards tell them they have all just been baptised 'cos it was Holy Water...

Either that or let me swimm free in all public pools - they will not want to swim where my floaters have been

[mstriumph]

..............We start catering to all minorities like this then we are going to start hurtling down the slippery slopes that the UK is already going down.

i demand special, five-star, taxpayer-funded, goodies for six foot tall, middle-aged, left-handed, green-eyed, female motorcyclists with a low bullshit-tolerance level and a liking for mangos, smoked salmon and [non-vintage] champagne...........

.. but only if they have dual british/nz citizenship and a bad attitude ......

[Fub@r]

.. but only if they have dual british/nz citizenship and a bad attitude ......

Dual citizenship FTW just dont have the bad attitude

[Hitcher]

What is this FTW of which you speak? Fuck the world? Fold the washing?

[Skyryder]

Disagree with you.

If there is sufficient demand for a closed session at a suburban pool for a group of tax / ratepayers wheres the beef?

NZ has a huge history of segregation - as a man I cannot go to Contours and as Atheist I can't dip my head in the Catholic font. My local public squash court has a club night occasionaly and it is possible to book the whole facility for a corporate function. The Councils OWN the pools as an asset for the community and if they make a commercial decision to cater for a group that want to use a facility that is not used very much with minimal inconnvienience to others except the hate mongers why worry?

As I understand the issue: Muslim woman are unable to use our public pools because of their 'dress code' and have called for the use of public funded pools to be made available to them for this reason. This is 'not' a muslim issue but a gender one based on the female requirments. Muslim men are also required to conform to a dress code. The problem is that once you agree to provide a servide to one gender you a bound by the the New Zealand Bill of rights to provide the same service to the other. Thus, if concessions are made to females these same concessions must also be provided to males and in this case muslim men: all on the basis of religous beliefs. So should the community also acquiesce to other religous groups also on the basis of religious beliefs. I can just imagine the uproar should a group like the Exclusive Bretheren be given exclusive use of a public ammentity (pool) based on their religous beliefs. That their general exclusion of any form of contact with the general community could be sited as grounds for use of a public ammentity such as a swimming pool.

Councils do from time to time 'hire' their facilities to groups. I am aware of one Community Collage in Christchurch that hires out a pool for muslim woman for both that students and care givers for reasons of faith.

The examples that you give for segregation are not relevant to this discussion on the basis

1 Yes you can attend Contours if you so wish,(but do you want to?) just as females can join the boy scouts.

2 As an athiest would you want to dip your head in the font and if you did you can always join the faith.


Any form of segregation be it state sponsed or self-imposed with an agreement with state or council is wrong. Should we also allow our beaches to be closed or certains sections of them to be closed because of Muslim religious sensativities?

Skyryder

PS Hate-monger: that's a pretty strong word for those that diagree with you on this one. For the record I have never 'hated' anyone in my life.

[Ixion]

So, if the councils played ball, and arranged special sessions to accomodate the request, would those sessions be MUSLIM women only, or could ANY women go along. I imagine there might well be other women who would prefer a "female only" environment : pregnant, shy, ugly, handicapped, lesbian, whatever.

That to me seems the nub of the matter: If the request is "Because of our cultural concepts of modesty, we are uncomfortable about being in skimpy clothing in the company of men", that seems to me to be one thing. If the request is "We are Muslims so we want a session for Muslims only", that is another matter.

Objections on the basis if gender equality etc, might easily be met by having a similar "men only" session : once again there might be men who would prefer to swim without women being present.

(Incidentally, "dipping head in font" does not form part of any Catholic ceremony I know of, except perhaps for baptism. But I can confidently assure you that , atheist or not, you would be very welcome at any Catholic service.)

[elle-f]

What i dont understand is their need to BE in public at all. It seems to me that their culture is based on them shielding themselves FROM the public. They need to build their own pools AWAY from the public at large.....

as for those white hairy legs...... I would be wanting to sheild those too. My hairy legs need shielding and i would rather be in a spa area that was blanketed off from the rest of the pool than actually bother shaving

[elle-f]

I think the Muslims have learnt well from the Maoris.

You are kidding me - We dont wear covers over our faces........er maybe we do but that's only when we are being chased to hide the moko's

[Fub@r]

What is this FTW of which you speak?

FTW = For The Win