Kapiti: SH1 crash (16 January)

**xwhatsit** · 17th January 2007, 11:47

I wouldn't totally discount the NZ roads as a partial cause in many accidents. I've just been overseas, riding in Brisbane and quite a few bits north and south of it. Now, I'm not necessarily referring to the big 6-lane straight motorways, but even the backroad motorways, single lane both ways, twisty etc etc feel a hell of a lot safer to ride on than NZ ones do. Less blind corners, more sensible cambers, all of those things you guys are talking about. Of course, they're a lot more boring to ride on, but that's another issue.

I don't know whether roads like ours are solely the fault/credit of Transit or whoever built them, I'd say a large chunk of the blame has to go into the local geography, and also the lack of money that they get to build the roads. I'm sure Transit would like to do nothing more than build a massive 6-lane viaduct across the entire landscape (and put tolls on it

), but that's obviously not going to happen with the amount of money they get. Our country's about the same size as Japan, but the economy's far worse and we have a much lower population density -- so less tax for each motorway (yes, I know, we have less motorways than Japan but you get my point).

**James Deuce** · 17th January 2007, 11:58

Most Scandinavian countries, with much more robust economies and similar populations and land areas, do not rely on roading for transit and shipping.

NZ's sealed to unsealed is currently running at a ratio of about 55% to 45% in favour of sealed roads.

Until very recently Sweden's major highway was unsealed outside of it's major cities, hence the number of stunning rally drivers that emanate from the region. Similarly Finland and Norway have a much greater ratio in favour of unsealed roads to sealed roads than NZ. I have Norwegian relatives who are constantly surprised by the depth, breadth, and quality of NZ roads, and our comparative lack of rail and shipping.

I repeat: The roads are not to blame. If they were all gravel, it would still not be the road's fault. It's the nut behind the wheel/handlebars.

**candor** · 17th January 2007, 21:20

Rubbish. Scandinavian countries have similar population bases and only earn a couple thou more per heads than we do. Our economy is flush and we can well afford fast and safe roads. Such things are not put on platters by Govts but only come when people see the benefit obviously. First they need education re the possibility and benefits - that is hard to get out there with a media well bought off by current 'regime'. But as you say Jim skill and labour are problems.

Transit are telling blatant lies about the costs of road improvements too.

We spend less than 21 out of 23 other OECD lands of similarwealth on roads. And what we do spend goes to the wrong places - councilds not highways as it is population tagged. Not tagged to area of danger and most deaths / need. If you have lots of speed humps and fancy sculptures in your street andd think it looks nice - someone payed on SH1 4 dat - in blood.

That drivers stuff ups cause the toll is moot. States the obvious. Unconstructive to stop the thought flow there. Causing a crash does not equate to deserve to die - in a fairs fair equation! Most societies no longer have such brutal primitive and frankly bush attitudes. Its just that this simplistic attitude is what govt is indoctrinating people with here - so that all onus is off them to use OUR taxes to provide a safe system. Docile acceptance of a sick situation is what the spin Drs order.

Funny how fireys don't jump up and down after every house fire saying - see a smoker again , a damn smoker (equivelent to "speeder"). Or how lifeguards don't after drownings go saying - "see you went in the water - take that". Only in road safety is the victim (guilty or not) inevitably blamed.
Families of innocent victims often find insensitive pratts look for ways to blame the victim (apparently this is a psychological defense to restore feelings of safety and security. It is plainly better to believe "I'm in control and it can't happen to me")

Besides which - even if you did deserve to die for a moments inattention or being drowsy after a 20 hour shift at the hospital saving lives - what about the poor bugger on the other side of the road you kill when you cross it!

Do they deserve to die also? Or to end up in a wheelchair or brain dead?

And what about the fact that spending up front on roading methods proven to cut tolls like ours by 50-80% over and over is said by the World bank to make sense... in the long view (30 yr view). Do we want to carry a 3.3bill cost of road crashes every year forever? Wow thats so clever.

And why would we not do what can be done to prevent severe crashes via engineering since that is how we can cut the NUMBER 1 cause of homicide. It used to be called manslaughter. Now its just drink or drug driving causing death - kills 200 odd innocent people a year - a bit up on 40 odd murders.

Well we can't do much about the murders so long as 1 a week is done by patients on community orders! But here is a serious criminal culling of innocents that can be fixed technologically. Oh thats right - I forgot - "it won't happen to me or my family because... we're not dolts behind the wheel".

Wrong! Its not you - but the other idiots to worry about as the old cliche goes - and more importantly how transit roads line you up in the F****r's sights. Prevention is better than hoping your kiler gets more than 2 mths jail.

A total bastard who I sorely want to strangle wrote the Dom Post Editor today. He said much the same as some of u on this thread. He minimised the trauma and pain felt by road victims by cleverly pointing out that a death per 9 mill vehicles at Kapiti is not a bad average. And then finished his cold nasty ignorant rant with "road design? Get real".

Thanks Steve L of Waitakere. Your claim of road safety expertise based on having driven that road often is so impressive

. But he gives away his toddler education status by referring to crashes as accidents. No such thing.

I'm afraid to say I hope Karma comes his way. And that as he holds up traffic while dying painfully due to someone being ABLE to cross the centreline - I hope he reflects on his letter and regrets his smartarse minimising of a big problem. One in 50 dying on the road when it copuld be half that is a big problem.

It is weird working in road safety the attitudes you come across. Some people are so opposed to reducing injury and stopping trauma and death. They are so angry people would try. And they are so determined that progress won't or can't be made and vehement about this. Most peculiar the level of animosity that promotion of crash reduction or crash severity reduction brings.

It's almost like they're getting backhanders from grim reaper and their coldness makes my skin crawl. They pretend to be rational but usually haven't a clue about the subject area. Needless to say they've never lost a kid or brother or grandmother through a fault or faultfree crash.

It just gets me why people would feel a need to spout harmful malevolent BS when they clearly are very illinformed (Steve L I mean).

**Ixion** · 17th January 2007, 22:25

.

I don't WANT fast and safe roads. I don't WANT money spent on roads. I want lousy roads. Off camber roads, roads with big potholes, windy bendy roads ,gravel roads, roads that dont have any signs on them, roads that frighten people (and , ironically, are therefore safe, cos the incompetant muppets don't even try).

It's "fast safe roads" that cause fatal accidents, cos the incompetant fools that make up the majority of the present road users are deluded into thinking that they can drive on them without stuffing up. Whereas the reality is that the majority of the population is not capable of ever driving on ANY road with ballsing it up. And "fast safe roads" mean that the muppets drive fast. So when they stuff up (as they do) the mess is big and fatal.

Lousy shitty scarey roads frighten the muppets away. And for those who are not frightened off, the roads are FUN.

**Grahameeboy** · 18th January 2007, 05:48

Whatever happened to that good old saying 'drive / ride to the conditions'??

**James Deuce** · 18th January 2007, 05:53

Originally Posted by candor

Rubbish. Scandinavian countries have similar population bases and only earn a couple thou more per heads than we do. Our economy is flush and we can well afford fast and safe roads.

If you look at straight GDP Norway's is $4k per capita better than NZ's, but their balance of payments is positive. NZ's balance of payments is in a shocking state, and as a country we can't afford to borrow any more money. All Norway has to do to meet an economic downturn is produce more oil temporarily.

We're doomed if we have a crisis like 1987 right now.

The best way to improve NZ roads is to get trucks off them. The road toll is NOT going to improve without intensive driver training. Roads don't kill people, and the type of roads that will get built to make the roads "safer" will mean there's no point owning a motorcycle that can go round corners with aplomb. We'll all end up riding Harleys, IF we can be bothered.

I agree with candor that there is too much of a fatalistic approach to acceptance of road deaths especially when a motorcyclist is involved. The chap that was killed at Silverstream bridge by two idiots dueling in their cars was a completely pointless death and because of the attitude to "accidents" on the road, the manslaughter charge will never see the light of day.

However if I die in an RTA today, I'll just be another motorcyclist who was probably a hoon and probably deserved it. Motorcycles are death traps you know, and the chap that crossed the centreline and killed me couldn't possibly be held responsible for the death of an idiot who chose to ride motorcycles.

I don't agree with candor's assessment of NZ's economy however. Subtle indicators like a largely 2nd hand vehicle fleet, patchwork road repairs, and a reliance on trading primary produce at a time when we are probably going to be banned from shipping that produce thanks to "carbon credits" mean things are going to get worse, not better.