Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77
Another Green - sort of where I voted, although I put in a plug for the Maori party as well.
More an old Values supporter!
Forum whore
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77
Another Green - sort of where I voted, although I put in a plug for the Maori party as well.
More an old Values supporter!
“- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Looking at countries that DO have a more evenly spread range of political parties (Germany), it is clear that NZ is actually underepresented on the extreme left but not the right wing.Originally Posted by Hitcher
It's all about perspective. Yanks think anything 'left' of the Good Ol Party Republicans) is communist or left wing. In fact the USA really doesn't have a functioning left, it merely has the right wing and the extreme right wing.
In NZ the Labour partry is usually painted as 'left' and that is certainly in part due to the yanks and their control of much of the media. In fact Labour is centre right while National is very right wing and also very authoritarian.
Again, go back and look at the different country charts on that continuum.
Forum whore
I think people confuse Muldoon with the National party!National is definitely NOT more socialist, it is more capitalist.
Muldoon was a misguided socialist in National guise, like the Douglas crowd were frustrated capitalists, until they got into power
It was all put back to normal with the Bolger/Richardson/Shipley tyranny of the 90's, that effectively shot NZ in both feet!
The only difference between the Republicans and Democrats these days, seems to be the color of their marketing letterheads!
“- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”
Weapons of Mass Acceleration
Dude, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Bling awarded. Mate I am fed up with the lack of democracy and fair media under this govt. She is a controlling manipulative person who has pushed her social engineering barrow all the while when they pay lip-service to the people, taxes, surpluses and and that good economic stuff that they are supposed to focus on. I am sick of working my ass off to fund every lazy pricks lifestyle too.
Weapons of Mass Acceleration
Hey! I live in nutsville. Gonna have to shoot me five rotties, twelve ridgebacks and four pitbulls.... once I can afford the petrol to put in me redneck pickup to go to council to get consent to fart on my property and discharge a firearm without incurring a carbon debit or upsetting the local townies who live in the country and call the cops evertime they hear 'bang'.
Forum whore
Well, social welfare is not a determinant of socialism. America has a comprehensive social welfare system. China (nominally a Communist country) does not. So social welfare is not an indicator . Nor is social welfare (or its absence) an indicator of where a society lies on the "left vs right" economic scale. Historically, social welfare schemes tended to accompany left wing economics, because both were favoured by the trade union movement. But they are different things.
For instance, the Tudor guilds operated a sophisticated social welfare system, under the aegis of a totally capitalist economy.
To my mind, the determinator of where a party lies on the economic left/right axis, is it's position with regard to ownership of assets. From the extreme left wing (the State owns everything and private property is illegal) to the extreme right (the State owns nothing, all "property" - including utility services, schools etc , is privately owned).
Nowdays , we may I think ignore discussion of the "pure" economies, Communism on the one hand and Adam Smith capitalism on the other, simply because no major country would be able to implement them.
And, on such a basis , I would say that NONE of the present NZ political parties can be deemed Socialist, because none of them endorse public ownership , even of essential services. Labour's record, even in very recent years , is a sorry one. Watercare. Air NZ. Railways. Private toll roads. Privatisation of the health system. These are not the policies of a Socialist government. National is neither better than worst, just more honest about where it stands. The Greens are worse than Labour.
You appear to distinguish the parties on where they stand with regard to social welfare, which is understandable , because this is one of the few discernable differences (others are foreign policy, though both are happy to sell us out to the global corporates; and environmental policy). But social welfare, as I note above is not an indicator of economic position. If anything it is an indicator of centralisation vs localisation -The state will look after you, versus your family or wrokmates will look after you- (see my coment above) ; or authoritarian/libertarian position - you will contribute, via taxes, whether you wish to or not, versus I will make my own charitable decisions.
Note that a propensity to war, or otherwise, is universal. Socialist, communist, fascist, capitalist, all are equally likely to call for war , or peace, as best suits their purpose.
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Oh dear, where do i start?
As I said right from the start; placing too much emphasis on one or a few specific issues will confuse not elucidate. It will allow a prty to gain power and misuse that power as if it was a mandate just because the electorate voted on the one or threee 'issues' rather than on the balance of a political party's proposed or hidden aims.
As for talk back, much of talkback is publicly funded and therefore spared a great deal of the wrath of advertisers. Also, because of it's nature, it is not really possible to control the issue that much with the threat of the advertising dollar. Certainly somewhat but not in a major way. I've even done it myself a couple of times: changed the subject being discussed with a few arranged phone calls.
Sadly of course, many people DO vote on specific issues ignoring the larger picture. It's unlikely IMO that National would ever have power again if that were not the case, it is just too far removed from the basic needs, desires, ethics and culture of working class NZ.
You've seen that I am less than appreciative when people ascribe communist theories as socialism. Well the term 'liberal' is just as odious.
Liberal what? Capitalists actually WANT liberalism on one hand. They want to be free to use their money and power liberally to fuck over anyone and anything that gets in their way. That's what laissez faire means.
Social liberalism is an entirely different continuum but it so often gets thrown in as a 'left wing' concept. All it is really, is the idea that peole should be allowed to do as they wish as long as that does not harm others.
So when people start chucking the word 'liberal' around, usually describing their idea of the 'left', I just groan and think "propaganda"
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Social welfare is a communist ideal that was intoduced by the Labour Party in NZ. That party also practiced capitalist ideals and is therefore rightly termed 'socialist'
That amerika has it too is more a carry over from the respect that FDR had than a reflection on current america. If Bush could get rid of it he would and he is in fact destroying it in stages by privatising it's elements.
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
The only real reason right wing systems still have social welfare is to stop the 'masses' rising and throwing them out completely. Without it, capitalism would be even more heartless.
That said, Bush et al are doing a damn fine job of eliminating it and their tax schemes and overspending may put the final nail in the coffin.
The 'cost' of social welfare will soon be said to unustainable in the US due to the reduced tax take since Bush (because of the reduction of taxes from the wealthy) and due to the cost of the Iraq war. That is already the case in fact and many social welfare programmes in the US have been cut drastically.
Forum whore
The original (1917) Clause 4 of the UK Labour party constitution
Note that the Labour party specifically rejected Communism (in both UK and NZ- you cannot be a memeber of the NZ Labour party if youa re a Communist)"To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service."
Are you arguing that the Attllee (UK) or Savage/Fraser (NZ) governments were in fact Communist ? Because they were strongly in favour of nationalisation, and actually carried out a great deal of it.
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
With respect Ixion, the descriptions and determinators of communism, capitalism and socialism have been set and set by a man voted the greatest philosopher of the 20th century: Karl Marx
YOUR idea of what they are is merely a political manipulation and can be described along the propaganda axis I desribed earlier. The manipulation of word meanings is a propaganda tactic from start to finish.
I prefer discussion based on real definitions (not wikipedia), the following is Marx paraphrased:
Capitalism: An economic system where the means of production is controlled by capitalists (the wealthy)
Communism: An economic system where the means of production is controlled by the people through the State.
Socialism: A state existing between the two extremes combining elements of both. A transitional state.
Where it's at...
It's been ages since I have enjoyed reading such healthy debate concerning NZ politics.
Not only that, but some new words to pronounce in my head.
III - Elucidate
You tend to use this alot, could you use another word in it's place please?
I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.
Cheers
G
Om nom nom.
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
Ixion
Just because a government specifically rejects communism per se, does not mean they do not have communist philosophy as part of their culture.
I refer you to Karl Marx. Socialism is a system that contains elements of BOTH communism and capitalism.
e mare libertas
To be perfectly honest, I don't think most arguers on the subject know what they're going on about.
I give you, for example, the illiterate ranters in this thread blithering about their taxes being used to support bludgers.
The main economic question is whether to redistribute wealth or not. People tend to be selfish on that issue - folk with good earning potential, or plenty of assets laying around, hate giving it away, whereas folk who would typically end up on the middling-to-low end of the socioeconomic scale quite like the idea of a levelling-out, thank you very much. Taxation, regulation, social welfare, public utility ownership - it's all a simple question of whether or not to redistribute.
The main social question, as opposed to economic, is one of the acceptance or rejection of an overarching objective morality - the question of whether behaviour that is not immediately and obviously harmful should be legally regulated.
There's no easy answer to anything, and either way, there will always be a halfwit somewhere, bitching and moaning.
And here we are, arguing about the definitions of socialism and communism. Whether or not socialism is Communism Lite, or something different, isms are generally no more than an excuse for strawman arguments. Issues and ideas should always be debated on their own merits.
kiwibiker is full of love, an disrespect.
- mikey
has made a bo-bo in his nappies
ha!ha!It's been ages since I have enjoyed reading such healthy debate concerning NZ politics.
Not only that, but some new words to pronounce in my head.
III - Elucidate
You tend to use this alot, could you use another word in it's place please?
I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.
Cheers
G
OK: clarify, explain, explicate, expound, spell out, interpret
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