War?

[Dave Lobster]

Ok how about this one then. Basically this is about Muslims and the others (I loosely use the christians) My problem is with the ones on the others side (Christians ) who want to keep on turning the cheek in defence of the other side. Like that Auck uni student from Canada who was captured in Iraq and threatened with beheading a year or so ago, they executed one of his group. They caught the group that did it and he wouldn't testify against them because he believed what they were doing was right and America was in the wrong. I don't think he has gone back tho Hamet Sooden or some name like that.

What has that got to do with me going back somewhere??

[terbang]

just listen to yourself ...... that isn't helpful?

entrenched factionalism solves nothing

Its not entrenched factionalism, its purely an observation. Why am I not helpful by putting up one side to a debate? Clearly our views are different, uh well thats normal so why the castigation. Yes there are always two sides to a story, and I have never said otherwise but I openly sympathise with one side more than the other, because I know them better. I was personally affected by Israeli hostility and eventually lost my job as a result of it. Not saying that the Israeli hostility wasn't in retaliation to something the Palestinians did and so on, but I saw enough dodgey and heavy handed behaviour to convince me that the Israelis arn't quite the good guys above the Palestinians as I suspect you and many others are alluding to. Or is that because thats what the yanks think and they must be right?

[mstriumph]

Its not entrenched factionalism, its purely an observation. Why am I not helpful by putting up one side to a debate? Clearly our views are different, uh well thats normal so why the castigation. Yes there are always two sides to a story, and I have never said otherwise but I openly sympathise with one side more than the other, because I know them better. I was personally affected by Israeli hostility and eventually lost my job as a result of it. Not saying that the Israeli hostility wasn't in retaliation to something the Palestinians did and so on, but I saw enough dodgey and heavy handed behaviour to convince me that the Israelis arn't quite the good guys above the Palestinians as I suspect you and many others are alluding to. Or is that because thats what the yanks think and they must be right?

see you changed your signature, nevertheless

yes - there are several sides to any story .... but when we, at this distance, start picking up sides and saying venomous things about nuking one side or the other [yes you did] then WHAT HOPE IS THERE THAT THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THE UNPLEASANTNESS CAN TALK ABOUT IT RATIONALLY ENOUGH TO SORT THINGS OUT?

i repeat, worded differently - the true enemy here is the 'us and them' mentality [no matter WHO you or i or anyone else decides is 'us' and who is 'them'] .......... and, irrespective of who anyone judges is the 'baddest' ... until the people concerned want peace, harmony and stability rather than vengence and destruction then none of this is going anywhere, is it

they say that truth is the first casualty of war
i'd say trust and commonsense are close behind

[doc]

What has that got to do with me going back somewhere??

Don't you remember.

[terbang]

Umm, my signature is the same as it has been for a while, perhaps you confuse me with another.

but when we, at this distance, start picking up sides and saying venomous things about nuking one side or the other [yes you did] then WHAT HOPE IS THERE THAT THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THE UNPLEASANTNESS CAN TALK ABOUT IT RATIONALLY ENOUGH TO SORT THINGS OUT?

Umm again, for a start my opinions were formed over there, flying into Gaza in a Palestinian aircraft so the first distance comment doesn't wash. Secondly I have never, nor will I do so make any remark about nuking anybody. Though I note someone else did. So next time you get on here and SHOUT at someone, have a read back through the thread and make sure that you are shouting at the right person.

[BAD DAD]

Someone tell me again why the hell the English Navy is over there?

Probably same reason the yanks were over here approx 60 years ago

[SPman]

Probably same reason the yanks were over here approx 60 years ago

After our women?

[mstriumph]

Umm, my signature is the same as it has been for a while, perhaps you confuse me with another.



............I have never, nor will I do so make any remark about nuking anybody. Though I note someone else did. ...............

good grief

right on both counts - it was Lias

rant hereby and unconditionally withdrawn, with apologies!

[smoky]

A lot of talk about “our Christian morals” and Christians against Muslim/Islam. Shouldn’t we be talking about capitalism – not Christianity?
It's the drive to invest and the need to open new markets for western capitalist corporations, the materialism we baptise ourselves in is not a Christian culture at all. It’s a western culture.

In fact the essence of Christianity is a dictatorship not a democracy, from the top down, it’s main players appointed to their position – not elected – no intended democracy in Christianity, it preaches subservancy!

So while talking about Arabs and the Middle East conflict with the west – should we not talk about capitalism?

[Hans]

A lot of talk about “our Christian morals” and Christians against Muslim/Islam. Shouldn’t we be talking about capitalism – not Christianity?
It's the drive to invest and the need to open new markets for western capitalist corporations, the materialism we baptise ourselves in is not a Christian culture at all. It’s a western culture.

In fact the essence of Christianity is a dictatorship not a democracy, from the top down, it’s main players appointed to their position – not elected – no intended democracy in Christianity, it preaches subservancy!

So while talking about Arabs and the Middle East conflict with the west – should we not talk about capitalism?

Western civilisation would probably be more accurate. The "secular" bit also pisses them off. They just can't find it in them to comprehend that one.

[Quartermile]

A lot of talk about “our Christian morals” and Christians against Muslim/Islam. Shouldn’t we be talking about capitalism – not Christianity?
It's the drive to invest and the need to open new markets for western capitalist corporations, the materialism we baptise ourselves in is not a Christian culture at all. It’s a western culture.

In fact the essence of Christianity is a dictatorship not a democracy, from the top down, it’s main players appointed to their position – not elected – no intended democracy in Christianity, it preaches subservancy!

So while talking about Arabs and the Middle East conflict with the west – should we not talk about capitalism?

Yea but maybe it stemed from christainity, because back in the day thats how politics worked, they revolved around religion just like still do in the middle east

[terbang]

Capitalist Imperialism springs to mind. In the case of GWB and cronies it wasn't working fast enough so they reverted back to the good old military version.

[Macktheknife]

Religious tolerance
.

FAARKKK MMEEEEE you have got to be kidding!
this has to be a piss take surely, no-one could say this with a straight face could they?

[Macktheknife]

A nation built on stolen land, that still demands sympathy and reperations for a myth that supposedly happened 60 years ago. A nation run by thieves, cowards and liars, that only continues to exist because America gives it billions of dollars a year in aid. A nation thats commited more atrocities than were ever supposedly commited against its founders. Israel is a nation of pure evil.. Who _wouldnt_ want to see them burn in the fires of nuclear oblivion?

Oh my.....
Lias, are you still thrashing that dead horse?
The holocaust never happened, Jews are the biggest problem in the world, pure evil, blah blah blah.
Please get your facts right and build a bridge.
And suggesting that any nation should "burn in the fires of nuclear oblivion" is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from anyone, it would completely destroy the rest of the world. Get a grip.
All you are achieving is to convince everyone that you are a raving nutter who could not recognise reasonable discussion if it bit him on the arse.

[Ixion]

Go check it out. For a thousand years or so while Christians were burning anybody who differed even in flavour of Christianity, let alone a whole different religion, Jews, Hindus and Christians (and a bunch of others) lived in peace under Islamic rulers. Orthodox Cristians in the Balkans, Roman Catholics ditto, Hindus in India (Akbar married a Hindu woman - what would have been the odds of Loius XIV marrying a Muslim and remaining alive, let alone non-excommunicated).

At worst a non Muslim had to pay the jirzya tax. Having paid it, he was entitled to protection and allowed to practice his faith. And the tax was only fitfully exacted. Certainly Christians suffered at the hands of despotic rulers. So did Muslims.

Even today, I'd rather be known to be a Christian in any Middle Eastern country than known to be a Muslim in the US Deep South.

See here for a brief but good exposition of Muslim religious tolerance. (by a non Muslim)

Hatred, bigotry and intolerance can certainly be found amongst Muslims. So can they likewise amongst Christians, Jews, and almost every other religious persuasion (I'm not sure about Buddhists) . Those professing such behaviours will no dounbt answer for them sooner or later, no matter what their purported faith.