Do I really need my rear brake?

[90s]

Just testing the water! Cause even at 200k+ I still trail the rear brake a fraction. Never liked the thought of the front stepping out without a fraction of rear on. Just that some of the posts here seemed to say they use none at all?? And that didn't make sense. Each to his own I suppose!

I would think most of the advice in this thread is not based on 200kph+ riding. I would say this is track speeds, therefore you need to be good at track skills (and remembering that the road is not the track ... )

Back to the main thread, you'd be nuts to ride at "fast" speeds without knowing your bike and both brakes were in top nick and your riding skills were up to it. And you accept the responsibility of massive stack.

(jesus I must be old. I am sounding like such an old frickin' woman these days ...)

[Monsterbishi]

To throw my few cents into the deal, barring instances of keeping my bikes in one place whilst sitting on a incline, I've never used the back brakes on any bike I've owned.

In fishtail moments, all I've done in the past is just let off the throttle slightly, does the same thing with more predictable results than risking a tail end lockup at speed.

[sAsLEX]

Re: braking- Funny? but just watched the last moto GP and Rossi was using the rear brake to steady the bike and keep the back in line, leaving the odd faint black line on the track. I wonder if it would be a good idea to copy him. even on the road.

.

So come in to a left hand corner well off the inside of the bike, rear hovering hardly on the deck left leg well out to try balance the bucking and kicking beast as the rear swaps from left to right a few times.......



Sure sounds like a good idea.

[Pancakes]

But I have to disagree on the brakes. On my bicycle in all those years on road never once (well, almost) did I use the rear brake, and in general it would have been bad form to use it on the road. (front brake hope xc4 disc).
Any fear about going over the front is the result of bad riding. 100% of braking from the front wheel once the rear has left the ground, and in emergency braking it should. The rear will lock easily, just like a motorbike as the weight comes up. Contrary to what people seem to be implying on this thread, there is absoltely no problem on a bicycle or motorbike in locking and sliding the front wheel on a straight as long as you look up and forward (yes I have tried it extensively in 'life' and at the RRRS course). But you will go down if you panic, or are steering sharply, esp. if the wheel hits oil on the turn.

My point was that many times the front will wash out before the back comes up, in an emergency most people are at the mercy of whatever good or bad habits they have drilled while riding everyday. You point about oil on the road? How do you make sure there isn't an oil patch on the road? Plan your emergencies ahead? Normal road riding isn't racing I agree with that but racing and raod emergencies are both maximum effort braking and in both car and bike aren't normally complete stops, more like scubbing as much speed as possible in the shortest distance possible so you can turn sharply to avoid the hazard. I'm not arguing the fact that a very low stopppie will pull you up damn quick, I could stay on the front only for ages on my courier bike, I just wonder where grabbing that much front brake will leave you on a typical NZ road or in a lanesplitting situation, I have locked the front too between cars but once your there the time it takes to go down is faster than most peoples reacion time, assuming the reacion you choose is the right one, comes back to what you practice every time in that situation.

[90s]

My point was that many times the front will wash out before the back comes up, in an emergency most people are at the mercy of whatever good or bad habits they have drilled while riding everyday. You point about oil on the road? How do you make sure there isn't an oil patch on the road? Plan your emergencies ahead?

Agree with you - even about planning emergencies ahead. With what I coming to realise is total nana thinking you can try to ensure that you do not encounter unexpected problems like oil in a way that would cause you problems - such as riding unknown and known difficult corners with the expectation that there WILL be oil or a parked car on the apex; riding corners slow in fast out (so would hit oil etc. upright) etc etc.
Most of the problems with the front washing out etc are caused by rider being committed to something too rashly.
But what if you are caught out anyway, as still happens? I agree that the low stoppie is the most effective braking. Drilling fast stops like this until you have them cold may mean you don't stack rather than you do when you need them.

Covering the brake brake is good as you indicate though. But on light bikes and on super-sports (basically everything I have ever ridden) the rear will come up quick.

What I am interested in is whether big cruisers feel very different under braking, having never ridden on.
In theory a Blade would get emergency braking power front:rear 100:0
and something like a valkyrie 70:30
Planty of people have argued over the figures, but what does it feel like emergency braking on a big cruiser?

[Ocean1]

Covering the brake brake is good as you indicate though. But on light bikes and on super-sports (basically everything I have ever ridden) the rear will come up quick.

What I am interested in is whether big cruisers feel very different under braking, having never ridden on.
In theory a Blade would get emergency braking power front:rear 100:0
and something like a valkyrie 70:30
Planty of people have argued over the figures, but what does it feel like emergency braking on a big cruiser?

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?
I don't ride sports bikes, I genuinely don't know.
If you ever have occasion to brake as hard as possible and initiate a turn at the same time (sure you can think of plenty of emengency situations) then full front brake will see you planting your face. The tyre's only got so much grip, if some of that is being used laterally then there's less to use for braking. In that situation your rear wheel has weight on it and if it's got weight then it's got braking potential. In such a situation the fastest way to scrub speed WILL involve both brakes.

[Reckless]

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?
I don't ride sports bikes, I genuinely don't know.
If you ever have occasion to brake as hard as possible and initiate a turn at the same time (sure you can think of plenty of emengency situations) then full front brake will see you planting your face. The tyre's only got so much grip, if some of that is being used laterally then there's less to use for braking. In that situation your rear wheel has weight on it and if it's got weight then it's got braking potential. In such a situation the fastest way to scrub speed WILL involve both brakes.

You get 10 outa 10 for that one.

Some of the drift of conversation would lead me to believe that alot of the time under heavy braking (not emergency braking) your rears are off the ground or washing out. Or some guys aren't using the rear brake at all.
I don't quite understand this, as if your fighting to control the rear, on approach, instead of using a fraction less front and letting the rear brake settle or even slide the bike into the approach. Won't you be able to attack the apex and then the exit with more stability and therefore more throttle. I may be doing it wrong but even on the VTR, going really quick, I either cover the rear or use the rear as discribed. Maybe its all my Karting experience where we often used the rear, under brakes, and power, to start the turn often well before the apex.
I'm gonna keep doing it my way as it feels safer to me than all front and no rear. And from what I observe on the moto gp and Paeroa there are not to many rears in the air. But it is interesting to investigate different techneques.

[Kflasher]

Have issues using rear brake due to lack of mobility in ankle.
So I very rarely use it, sold one of my bikes with 40,000 odd k’s with the original rear pads.
Thumb mounted control work brilliant on last bike, so must fit it to current stead.
Rear brake is very useful as stated above, fix it before you need it... my 2 cents

[Ocean1]

I may be doing it wrong but even on the VTR, going really quick, I either cover the rear or use the rear as discribed. Maybe its all my Karting experience where we often used the rear, under brakes, and power, to start the turn often well before the apex.

That sounds very like a dirtbike trick.
Especially on modern dirt bikes you normally use the back brake to control the bike's attitude going into a turn. You're looking to get the back starting to go wide so that at the apex you've got the right "oversteer" to use the power to steer the bike out of the turn. If you tried the same lean-only technique used on the road you'd either lose it or run way wide. If it sounds like I do it perfectly like that every time I assure you nothing could be further from the truth but I do know that's the best/fastest way around a corner in most flavours of dirt...

[90s]

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?

Yes is the short answer.
Late apexing style of cornering, general slow-in fast-out.
Ride to avoid braking in a corner, but confortable with the front brake on in a corner as well as the rear to toe-in. (there is a graph somewhere on the relationship to lean/braking power/grip along that supports what you say).
If I can in a corner I lean/cs rather than brake.

I think some of the comments in the thread are confusing whether we are talking about:
1) general riding
2) emergency braking
3) racing

[Reckless]

Don't get me wrong Ocean it is very subtle its not like sliding in at 20 degrees as I think you may be picturing. Its still with your shoulder into the corner and possibly the arse off the inside. Although you do see the moto gp boys sliding in at some awesome degrees under induced countersteer with the rear well stepped out. Shit I wish I could do that!
I ride dirt 2-3 times a month and the techneque is much different. Possibly because at 160k on a sweeper you have gravity/inertia pushing you and the bike into the road which gives you grip and enables you to hang off the inside-center of gravity-yada yada.
On a dirt bike, there is little grip (or your not going fast enough) your always ready with your foot out. One training vid I watched said to sit on the top edge of the seat on a sweeping corner. And it works. We are mostly standing on the trails and even when cornering most of the weight is on the pegs not your arse. you'd stuff your back if you didn't. Thats why its the most strenuious sport there is. (jeepers I need spell check).

[Reckless]

Yes is the short answer.
Late apexing style of cornering, general slow-in fast-out.
Ride to avoid braking in a corner, but confortable with the front brake on in a corner as well as the rear to toe-in. (there is a graph somewhere on the relationship to lean/braking power/grip along that supports what you say).
If I can in a corner I lean/cs rather than brake.

I think some of the comments in the thread are confusing whether we are talking about:
1) general riding
2) emergency braking
3) racing

I agree 90's but like to add a qualifier on a modern 600/1000cc sport bike. General riding/sport riding/racing are becoming quite similar. The bikes themselves dictate this. Go and ride a CBR1000 or ZX10 they are just awesome.

And can't you still be on the brakes at/after the c/s point. Nothing is set in stone you've only got to watch the different racing styles.

[Pancakes]

Interesting.
Do you only ever brake hard in a straight line?
I don't ride sports bikes, I genuinely don't know.
If you ever have occasion to brake as hard as possible and initiate a turn at the same time (sure you can think of plenty of emengency situations) then full front brake will see you planting your face. The tyre's only got so much grip, if some of that is being used laterally then there's less to use for braking. In that situation your rear wheel has weight on it and if it's got weight then it's got braking potential. In such a situation the fastest way to scrub speed WILL involve both brakes.

EXACTLY!! Seems like most posting think they are the badass riders and if you are, I'm sorry. I see tons of bikes out everyday and when splitting etc have to do and get to see others get into situations that I would descibe as emergency braking. I have yet to see someone stoppie in those situations. Some of those people can stoppie great I'm sure but I never see it when it counts. Also, basing your high power braking situations on dry, smooth, no oil/dirt/gravel/paint lines/cat's eyes surface and only when you are able to carry on in your direction of travel (argue all you like, if you say your braking dead straight up and down with the back end still behind you your going to be going the way you were when you started, give or take a couple of degrees at the most) your not really living in the real world. Have you weighed up the skill needed to stay upright on the front wheel, not hitting the curved side of one of those dome cats eyes if your splitting (remembering we are now way off topic with this "do I need a back brake" thread) v.s trailing the rear just a bit enough to do the work for you of keeping the back in line without any input from you and enabling you to start cornering faster when your braking room runs out.

The majority of the time an emergency stop is BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE, nearly at the thing that is in your way, Phew, now going slow enough to turn out of the way. Haven't seen or been in many situations where I/the rider has come to a full stop, If your stopped on a bike on the road your a sitting duck.

I agree Reckless, the rear firms up with a sustained brush of the rear, I recon there is more braking available in a corner than our scaredey brains tell us. Just like instead of running wide, staying calm, smooth and going lower than you have before could well see you smiling out the end of a corner you hit too hot. Now, just have to find the balls to practice. In that on the limits pracice is where you really do need to beware of the skid demon!!

[90s]

EXACTLY!! Seems like most posting think they are the badass riders ... if you say your braking dead straight ... your not really living in the real world.

Final comment on this. I'm certainly not a badass rider, but a very conservative one. I have no track experience (except on karts). But all my riding is 'real world'. I commute 200ks per week through heavy traffic, and I've commuted similar distances on different machines (inc. cycles) for the last 20 years, always in big cities.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread for different riding styles. I would like to work on my high-speed riding more and will take more tips out from this thread. I'm sure if I get onto one of those 1000s mentioned I would really have to learn a lot more.

Good luck practicing more braking options. It all helps. The one thing we all agree on is that there is no advantage in not having a rear brake working even if you may never use it.

[moko]

I agree Reckless, the rear firms up with a sustained brush of the rear, I recon there is more braking available in a corner than our scaredey brains tell us. Just like instead of running wide, staying calm, smooth and going lower than you have before could well see you smiling out the end of a corner you hit too hot. Now, just have to find the balls to practice. In that on the limits pracice is where you really do need to beware of the skid demon!!

It was always common knowledge that if you braked in a corner you'd fall off,end of.That was years ago and bikes,and more relevently tyres and brakes,are massively better these days,brakes were often on or off,just like anyone who tried using them while cornering.I`ve ridden my bike for 4 years and 50,000 kms and it holds no suprises for me in any department,got no qualms at all braking in corners.
As pancakes says the one time I had to hit the brakes a lot harder than I was happy with was when some clod cut me up as I was leaned right over going around a tight roundabout,bike barely twitched then nor when I gave it a handful to go around him rather than into him and it was as much instinct and experience as much as skill. Two big things,as I said I know my bike very well,on a borrowed bike or one I'd not done so many miles on I may well have stuffed up,or,and this brings in the second point,panicked not knowing if I'd get away with it,do that and your stuffed as well,which as it's human nature requires 100% confidence in yourself and your machine.
Only time I ever did a stoppie was on the same bike(old model 600 Fazer has R1 brakes fitted as standard) and was in an emergency situation,guy in a van came hammering past me,don't know what he was thinking about but he hadn't seen the concrete bollard in the middle of the road,he was going so fast he either cut across me or ploughed into it,I was overtaking a guy in the next lane(like I said god knows what van man was thinking) and came close to getting sandwiched,BOTH brakes full on as in shit or bust and the back came up.Most amazing thing about that is the van driver pulled in just up the road,waved me down and apologised profusely,seemed genuine but of course might well have thought I was one of the local desperadoes,whatever more usual reaction is disappear quickly from the scene.
Getting to know your bike properly is a biggie.
Oh yeah,point of the thread,both incidents could well have had me plastered across the road if I hadn't used my rear brake as well,obviously in the stoppie scenario it wasn't actually doing anything when the back wheel was off the ground but every inch of scrubbed speed was crucial.