Is intentional practice necessary?

[pritch]

If you are an instinctive rider then you dont need the practice,

Sorry can't agree with that. In motorcycling most things that are "instinctive" will cause you pain. Imagine you are a newbie startled by a powerslide and instinctively bang the throttle shut.

Mr Newbie I see you've met Mr Highside...

In an "Oh Shit!" moment you generally have only a very small fraction of a second to react. Better that you have a solution handy than that you have to go searching through the cobwebs at the back of your mind... Best thing is to keep the solutions near the front, and the best way to do that is to practice.

[Morcs]

Sorry can't agree with that. In motorcycling most things that are "instinctive" will cause you pain. Imagine you are a newbie startled by a powerslide and instinctively bang the throttle shut.

Mr Newbie I see you've met Mr Highside...

In an "Oh Shit!" moment you generally have only a very small fraction of a second to react. Better that you have a solution handy than that you have to go searching through the cobwebs at the back of your mind... Best thing is to keep the solutions near the front, and the best way to do that is to practice.

Ah yes, but the more experience you get, the more likely is that your instinct is correct because after that amount of time you learn the things you described. That is the point im making. Getting out there and riding is far more valuable, and as much as I hate crashing, I learn from them everytime. Rather know what works by having it happen, than reading a solution in a textbook.

Practice over theory anyday.

[MSTRS:Me]

.....Rather know what works by having it happen, than reading a solution in a textbook.

Assuming you are left in a condition that is still able to ride etc....
Learn the theory, then practice and fine tune as you improve.

[McJim]

Everyone's brains work differently.

what's right for some ain't right for others.

Find the learning style that suits you - in short learn how to learn - it will be the best skill you ever acquired.

20 years business experience has shown me that probably about 2% of people know how to learn - the rest just remember - big difference.

[HDTboy]

Ive found the more conscious practice I do, the worse my riding gets.

Practice over theory anyday.

Which is it?

I get your points, but what I mean by instinct is subconscious thinking, your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it.

There's a big difference between being able to do something without consciously thinking about it, and going on instinct. As stated by Jim2. Instincts get you hurt.

Assuming you are left in a condition that is still able to ride etc....
Learn the theory, then practice and fine tune as you improve.

Got it in one. You can't practise something if you don't know what it is you're trying to practise.
Keen for a short ride tomorrow Morcs?

[Morcs]

Keen for a short ride tomorrow Morcs?

Of course. Got to be early early though... work at 10am...

[Trudes]

We often go down to a large deserted car park and practice emergency stops, and for me U-turn practice as I suck at them. I think it's good to have some fore knowledge of what your bike and you are going to do in an emergency situation, and stopping quickly is pretty important. Like most things, if you practice something enough eventually it will become second nature, so hopefully when someone pulls out in front of me etc, it'll be second nature to break properly and not just grab a large handful of front break.
My other half has recently got a new bike, so we should really head on down to the practice pit again soon, and I noticed when I first rode it that it breaks differently to my bike and that I couldn't U-turn for shit on it, so I need to practice on his bike too before I ride it again.
Good luck with your practice!!

[BarBender]

All of this gets me onto my point: is it really necessary to intentionally go out and practice certain things on the road? Or is it just better to jump on the bike and ride the damn thing; go out and ride to where you need to go.

A bit of both Sanxie and a little bit more.

I think it takes more than skills and practice. Theres a fair amount of cognitive knowledge and behaviour required in the mix as well.

Agree with where McJim is heading. Learning is dependent on being self autonomous. Getting on the bike and practicing or riding will get you part of the way but there has to be at the very start a degree of self awareness, an inquiring mind, the desire and discipline to practice and the ability to take what you've learnt and use it when you need to.

What I am also realising recently is the importance of physical conditioning required to enjoy the types of riding I do. (drags, the odd track day, travelling to and from work everyday and a ride every weekend)

[Terminated]

I get your points, but what I mean by instinct is subconsious thinking, your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it.

This is in left field:
Compare the whole process of learning to type: I did many many moons ago. So now touch typing is second nature, the correct finger goes to the correct key rapidly followed by the next and the next etc etc without consciously thinking about the keys where they are and whether it is on the left side or rights side, top row, middle row, bottom row, index finger, thumb to space bar, middle finger or whatever.

Instinct and ingrained training can be blurred at times particularly if the ingrained training is not reviewed. Hitting the wrong keyboard key when typing or grabbing a handful of brake, or not electing to emergency counter steer.....out there on the road the scenarios are numerous. How we best prepare for them we hear and read time and again: practise, practise, practise.

Bringing this back to the whole matter of practice, "your brain evaluating and processing all the time without consciously thinking it," ultimately we strive for a successful result. How we improve the skill set is an individual discipline. A professional instructor to review our riding technique....like going to the family doctor for a health check up, you may not think you need it, but like insurance it will be a wise move.


Heads Up and Enjoy

[Black Bandit]

I regard every time I climb on the bike as an opportunity to learn, practice and hone the skill set required to pilot motorcycles. When I go for rides around my local routes I constantly try to evaluate my riding style, the lines through corners, the lean angle, the amount of speed that I can comfortably carry through bends, the approach to intersections etc.

Can I afford a little more lean angle?
Did I give myself sufficient time to see that cage and stop safely?

The greatest advantage I see with structured training is the opportunity to learn from experts, and unlearn bad habits that often evolve from self-taught sessions on the road. Personally I find very little about biking that is "natural" or "instinctive", and as said previously it's the instinctive reactions that get you in trouble.

My motto is evolving too. From "I wonder if I can" to:

Just because I can, doesn't mean that I should

[moko]

Instinct has saved me a couple of times but without practice I'd usually have come off anyway.I've done 25,000(50,000k approx) miles on my bike in a bit under 4 years and I know exactly how it'll react.So while last year instinct saved my neck when some guy cut across me on a roundabout if I didn't know exactly what my bike would do any part of braking hard,changeing line quickly then accelerating hard while leaned over could have,and probably would have seen me bouncing down the road.Neither of these are ideal on the road,instinct had me react,practice,and knowing my bike kept me calm and focussed on machine control.Big thing with riding is never take it for granted,always concentrate 100%,that's one reason I enjoy it so much,I leave everything else behind and find it very relaxing,a bit like meditation in a way.If you think you know it all,think you're the world's best rider you're heading for a fall sooner or later.I find I'm much more observant generally than most people I know,maybe as a result of riding a bike,you dont just look ahead,you need to know everything that's going on all around you and anticipate what's going on ahead.

[Terminated]

I have copied a link to this thread for the wannabe and newbie weekly 'Where Did You Ride and What Did You Practise?'
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...23#post1091223

Heads Up and Enjoy

[swbarnett]

Early on in my riding career (though not a newbie any more) I had a situation where I lost confidence in a corner. Basically, my conscious brain said "I can't take this corner at this speed". I tried to brake without thinking about how much, straighten up first etc. If I had I would've been in deep dodo. However, my foot and hand would not move. I remember this eerie feeling of being completely detached from my limbs - they simply wouldn't do what I was commanding them to do. My subconscious brain actually overrode my conscious brain because, with all the practice I had done, it new better.

My point here is that, if you want to be able to react as fast as possible and react correctly you have to train your subconscious. The only way that I know of to do this is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!

One side effect of practice is that if you meet a situation you haven't practiced your subconscious can take bits of what you have practiced and string them together to perform a completely new maneuver.

I had this happen to me when a car pulled out of a stationary line of traffic as I was passing at about 30-40k with me half-way along the car. I instictively pulled a tight lean-out to the right and, as I passed the front right corner of the car with the bumper scraping my foot peg, flipped over to a tight lean-out to the left, pulled upright and managed to carry on without coming off. Had I not practiced till the cows came home I would not have had the muscle memory and subconscious knowledge to pull this off. Not in a million years would I've thought to practice this particular maneuver.

Get out there and practice until it becomes second nature! And then practice some more.

[Disco Dan]

Ive found the more conscious practice I do, the worse my riding gets.

If you are an instinctive rider then you dont need the practice, all practicing will do is make you think, so when you end up with an 'Oh fuck' moment, you'll be thinking instead of acting upon instinct.

Mainly the reason I had an off this week, too much time thinking of what I should be doing rather than just doing what I should be doing...

I have to disagree Morcs

When a new rider encounters a "minty moment" their instinctual reactions will most likely be wrong. Riding a motorcycle requires you to almost 're-program' your instinctual reactions - something that takes practice, training and experience.

In a car, if something happens in front of you most peoples reaction is to slam on the brakes. If you do that on a bike - the result will most likely be a locked up front wheel and a ride in an ambulance. Changing your instinctual reactions to progressivly brake, loading up the shocks then increasing the braking force etc etc takes practice, training, experience and knowledge.

Head space is an important aspect to think about - especially those people that ride bikes as their primary or only form of transport... everyone has 'off' days. Being able to judge your own head space (mental health) and say to yourself - "im tired today, I only got 4 hours sleep last night and today the rain is horizontal I will take the bus" could save lives.

Bikes are my only form of transport (outside of work) and I have had days where I just could not focus and I would have been better off taking the bus/car/taxi etc etc...

Instincts are great... but they need to be right.

[Macktheknife]

Mainly the reason I had an off this week, too much time thinking of what I should be doing rather than just doing what I should be doing...

While I think I understand where you are coming from Morcs, what you have said here is quite misleading.
The fact you had an off is quite possibly related to your head space in relation to recent events. The fact that the kind of practice you like to do is not based on road skills but on track skills probably doesn't help either.
All riders IMHO should engage in reviewing the basic skills of handling a bike well, at regular intervals and especially when changing bikes. This allows for any bad habits to be addressed and corrected and also for training of 'instinctive' or unconscious response to situations.
Anyone who has trained for example in martial arts will know that it takes many hours of training to get movements to become unconscious and fluent, the same principle holds true for most skills including riding.