Is intentional practice necessary?

[Morcs]

I have to disagree Morcs

When a new rider encounters a "minty moment" their instinctual reactions will most likely be wrong. Riding a motorcycle requires you to almost 're-program' your instinctual reactions - something that takes practice, training and experience.

In a car, if something happens in front of you most peoples reaction is to slam on the brakes. If you do that on a bike - the result will most likely be a locked up front wheel and a ride in an ambulance. Changing your instinctual reactions to progressivly brake, loading up the shocks then increasing the braking force etc etc takes practice, training, experience and knowledge.

Head space is an important aspect to think about - especially those people that ride bikes as their primary or only form of transport... everyone has 'off' days. Being able to judge your own head space (mental health) and say to yourself - "im tired today, I only got 4 hours sleep last night and today the rain is horizontal I will take the bus" could save lives.

Bikes are my only form of transport (outside of work) and I have had days where I just could not focus and I would have been better off taking the bus/car/taxi etc etc...

Instincts are great... but they need to be right.

While I think I understand where you are coming from Morcs, what you have said here is quite misleading.
The fact you had an off is quite possibly related to your head space in relation to recent events. The fact that the kind of practice you like to do is not based on road skills but on track skills probably doesn't help either.
All riders IMHO should engage in reviewing the basic skills of handling a bike well, at regular intervals and especially when changing bikes. This allows for any bad habits to be addressed and corrected and also for training of 'instinctive' or unconscious response to situations.
Anyone who has trained for example in martial arts will know that it takes many hours of training to get movements to become unconscious and fluent, the same principle holds true for most skills including riding.

Yes, I think I phraised it slightly wrong.

Both Yourself and Disco hit the nail on the head of what I actually meant.

[jade]

I have to disagree Morcs

When a new rider encounters a "minty moment" their instinctual reactions will most likely be wrong. Riding a motorcycle requires you to almost 're-program' your instinctual reactions - something that takes practice, training and experience.

In a car, if something happens in front of you most peoples reaction is to slam on the brakes. If you do that on a bike - the result will most likely be a locked up front wheel and a ride in an ambulance. Changing your instinctual reactions to progressivly brake, loading up the shocks then increasing the braking force etc etc takes practice, training, experience and knowledge.

Head space is an important aspect to think about - especially those people that ride bikes as their primary or only form of transport... everyone has 'off' days. Being able to judge your own head space (mental health) and say to yourself - "im tired today, I only got 4 hours sleep last night and today the rain is horizontal I will take the bus" could save lives.

Bikes are my only form of transport (outside of work) and I have had days where I just could not focus and I would have been better off taking the bus/car/taxi etc etc...

Instincts are great... but they need to be right.

I agree with this entire post.

heres my post from yesterday.

I had an off day today. first caught a group of bikers in albany that I could tell were going for a blat, k7 thou - black with pillion was leading
speed triple zx12r and something else plus me
I wasnt in my zone and found myself rushing trying to keep up, as we got a bit more rural the pace upped and eventually I pulled over and decided I wasnt in the right state of mind, hungover and no boots plus a runny nose after a decent ride so i turned around and went back to my original destination, upon overtaking a car I got the most violent tankslapper ive had before and It slowed me back down.
couple hours later on a busy northshore road where motorcycle dealers are located I wound out 2nd gear when a car crossed my path, I was on the brakes hard, sliding sideways but I kept my cool and powered out
very fucked.
its 1:55, beautiful day - Ive got nothing to do but im not going back out today

The near miss I had yesterday with the car was not a nice experience, It was virtually Identical to 2 years ago when I had the same thing, locked up and hit a car breaking my femeur in 5 places.
Braking as hard as possible on the front from 100km in a 50 zone when a car pulled across my lane 20-25m ahead of me, rear was locked and starting to overtake the front, so I ditched the brakes picked an escape and went for it. thank fuck I pulled it off.
It is well and truly amazing how many thoughts your mind can process in a single moment,
Personally I think practice is important, I ride like an idiot sometimes and I like the feeling of pushing my machine to the limits of braking, grip and lean as well as getting to know what my tyres are truly capable of, even if it is at low speeds <70 . I am learning to do stoppies atm and I do them at virtually every traffic light or giveway, ive locked the front 4-5 times usually due to cold tyres, Ive always managed to recover - the point is I think you not only need to train yourself by practicing emergency stops and such, you need to also attempt to find the limits of these manouveres so in that instant of a second when the shit hits the fan you are prepared for the worst cAse scenario
and as per disco dans post realise that sometimes you arent in the right mindstate and you do need to call it a day - sometimes man and machine just dont gel

[MSTRS:Me]

The near miss I had yesterday with the car was not a nice experience, It was virtually Identical to 2 years ago when I had the same thing, locked up and hit a car breaking my femeur in 5 places.
Braking as hard as possible on the front from 100km in a 50 zone when a car pulled across my lane 20-25m ahead of me, rear was locked and starting to overtake the front, ....
Personally I think practice is important, I ride like an idiot sometimes and I like the feeling of pushing my machine to the limits of braking, grip and lean as well as getting to know what my tyres are truly capable of...

Part of learning to handle your bike includes learning what is appropriate in any given situation. This is a lesson that you seem to have not taken on board....
100kph in a 50 zone, same as 2 years ago, etc???
Take it to the track. At least you won't take out a kid there....

[moko]

I am learning to do stoppies atm and I do them at virtually every traffic light or giveway, ive locked the front 4-5 times usually due to cold tyres, Ive always managed to recover - the point is I think you not only need to train yourself by practicing emergency stops and such, you need to also attempt to find the limits of these manouveres

You do indeed mate but cutting that kind of shit on the road is going to get you dead or banned.It's also the kind of stuff other people see and think all bikers are dangerous idiots and should all be banned.
Do it on a track,do it off-road where yeah,maybe it is a good demonstration of machine control.Do it on the road and you'll either end up getting canned one way or the other or 2 years down the line bleating about the restrictions the Govt have pushed through to save people like you from themselves and everyone else from your stupidity.Said it before and I'll say it again ,some of the "knowledge" imparted by some of the younger/newbie riders on this site is plain scary,no wonder there are so many "I've binned my bike" threads here.Riding's a skill and bike's are not toys,forget that and you could well end up maimed,scarred,brain-damaged or 6 feet under.......I've got/had biker mates in all 3 categories.Got a bit of my bottom lip missing myself which is luckily not too noticeable but for years was a major mental thing for me.Dangerous enough out there without pushing your luck and like MSTRS says you could hit a kid or some other innocent and if you think you're gonna just put that one to the back of your mind if it happens you've got a lot of growing up to do.

[90s]

It was virtually Identical to 2 years ago when I had the same thing, locked up and hit a car breaking my femeur in 5 places.
Braking as hard as possible on the front from 100km in a 50 zone when a car pulled across my lane 20-25m ahead of me ... I ride like an idiot sometimes and I like the feeling of pushing my machine to the limits of braking, grip and lean as well as getting to know what my tyres are truly capable of

With this attitude you are not going to last long on the k6 750 you want. If you get there. Even more worrying is maybe that you'll take me out tyring to "pushing [your] machine to the limits" in a 50kph zone.

This thread is all about learning and reflection. If I was you I would read my own posts very carefully and reflect on what I am learning or not.

Before you are able to find out "what my tyres are truly capable of" you need to be aware of what you are capable of learning yourself. And you should really be aware that modern tyres on large bikes really don't have zone where you can feel them "going" before they go. Push - push - push - bin. And that's how you find out. So best do it on the tack.

[90s]

Back to the main thread ... ever wondered why so many cage drivers are so bad? Its because they ingrain years of bad habbits, get away with poor driving (without even being aware of it), and surrounded by safety cells and crumple zones do not pay the full price for their mistakes.
Most of the worst will tell you "oh I have years experience yadda yadda." Most are totally unprepared for emergency or unlikely situations. And most will feel that their experience they have "picked up" is enough.

And we know its not.

The discussion on this thread has been excellent. There's no skill or area you cannot improve on with reflective learning. The one issues is sometimes paralysis by analysis (which is why even sports pros taking extra coaching sometimes "loose their game" over-thinking). But this too is a transitional state when the conscious mind is trying to re-programme the learned behviours. It requires "a big man" (laddies too) to say "I can improve on this" and to question why we do things.

There is a real limit to what useful information we pick up just by life, or by daily driving. And it is shockingly low.

[FROSTY:Me]

Not doin the "my balls r biger n yours 'thing here BUT.
Ive been riding the best part of 30 years now and still I haven't stopped learning.
To me its a matter of moving as much of my riding into the subconcious as possible. This frees up more of the concious mind to deal with the OHH shit stuff.

[MVnut]

The concious mind is not really fast enough to deal with the unexpected. The subconcious is far quicker and far more powerful. Try to get into 'auto-pilot' and you'll be smoother, quicker etc etc and more able to overcome the 'panic' situations. It is also easier to control the information in the subconcious as it can be taught to believe/react to anything instantly. And back on the thread, I try to practise every time I get on a bike, sometimes physical things, sometimes more mind control.

[Sanx]

This talk of conscious / subconscious is quite interesting, and his got me thinking a little. I'm rather fortunate that, other than a few emergency braking manouvers thanks to fuckwit cagers, I've never had a real 'oh shit' moment on a bike.

However, there is a parallel that I can think of. My other half's little MX5 has rather 'entertaining' road-holding, especially in the wet. I've never driven a car where it's so easy to get the back to step out. I do it fairly often, just for a giggle. Today, however, it did it without me trying. My reaction was purely instinctive / subconscious; do not let off the gas suddenly, steer into the skid, hold it for a fraction of a second then bring it back into line gently. I reacted to it faster than I could consciously think, certainly.

Now, I've never gone out and practiced that particular skill, but I have done a reasonable amount of saloon and kart racing. I know the theory behind skid-control and power-sliding (again, thanks to my father) but it's not something I've tried to develop. So ... how have I learned it? With no practice, how has it become second nature?

[rwh]

Now, I've never gone out and practiced that particular skill, but I have done a reasonable amount of saloon and kart racing. I know the theory behind skid-control and power-sliding (again, thanks to my father) but it's not something I've tried to develop. So ... how have I learned it? With no practice, how has it become second nature?

Have you imagined yourself doing it? There's a fairly well known test with a bunch of basketballers where those who imagined themselves practising shooting baskets did nearly as well as those who really did it, and both much better than those who did no practice.

I think that's also the reason I did what I think was the right thing when I hit a patch of slippery mud only a few months into my riding - I accelerated through it, with both wheels slipping. I'd never done that before, but I had pictured myself in similar situations. The only downside was splattering limbimtimwim's bike with mud

Richard

[swbarnett]

I do it fairly often, just for a giggle.

This may be the answer. You've practiced the first stages and the brain has an uncanny way of extrapolating. It's either this or as rwh says, you may have imagined doing it. If you have a good understanding of the theory of a particular action imagining it is just as good as actually practicing it.