For Hitcher

[Macktheknife]

Everyone knows what people are saying no matter how its typed (i.e., the above is riddled with it ....but the point is, i'm sure people that read it understood it, without needing to critique it all!)

That is exactly the problem, many people assume that everyone can understand them when in fact they cannot. I have read some posts and had genuine difficulty in understanding what the person is trying to communicate, and I am certain I am not alone in that. I am not perfect with grammar and spelling but I do make an effort in trying to make myself clearly understood, I find it helps if I desire others to be clear in their responses.
Finally though, is it wrong to encourage others to improve their spelling and grammar, irrespective of the level of education. We are bikers, but we do not need to be illiterate, or barely literate ones.

[KATWYN]

... but being able to make yourself understood is an advantage if you are trying to communicate

Does that go for verbal communication as well? Theres always two or more perspectives . When there is a misunderstanding, or when information can't be understood, who is at fault? Speaker or listener? Writer or reader?

[KATWYN]

Finally though, is it wrong to encourage others to improve their spelling and grammar, irrespective of the level of education.

No, I don't think its wrong

Its the way some people go about it.

[MSTRS:Me]

Diction and grammar are pet peeves of mine, even though I'm sure I get it wrong a lot (mostly for trying too hard to get it right). But constantly being corrected is very annoying for anyone.

My two cents. Please would somebody cast an eye over it, and point out any errors in my spiel.

ur welkum

[MotoGirl]

Does that go for verbal communication as well? Theres always two or more perspectives . When there is a misunderstanding, or when information can't be understood, who is at fault? Speaker or listener? Writer or reader?

Let's not forget that poor punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence. If the writer uses incorrect punctuation and the reader misunderstands it, it's obviously the writer's fault.

For example, the sentence "Look at that huge hot dog!" refers to a large hot dog (that is, food). Adding a comma and making it "Look at that huge, hot dog!" completely changes the meaning of the sentence and the writer then refers to a large, hot canine.

[MSTRS:Me]

Let's not forget that poor punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence. If the writer uses incorrect punctuation and the reader misunderstands it, it's obviously the writer's fault.

For example, the sentence "Look at that huge hot dog!" refers to a large hot dog (that is, food). Adding a comma and making it "Look at that huge, hot dog!" completely changes the meaning of the sentence and the writer then refers to a large, hot canine.

"Look at that huge, hot, dog!"
I think two are necessary in your example....but essentially you are right.
Take the sentence 'Helping your uncle jack off a horse'....

[KATWYN]

Let's not forget that poor punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence. If the writer uses incorrect punctuation and the reader misunderstands it, it's obviously the writer's fault.

.

Agreed

But using the Kiwbiker site as an example my point is, that by looking at the overall structure of someones thread it gives the reader a pretty good idea of where the writer/author is coming from.

my 10c worth

[The Stranger:Me]

That is exactly the problem, many people assume that everyone can understand them when in fact they cannot. I have read some posts and had genuine difficulty in understanding what the person is trying to communicate, and I am certain I am not alone in that. I am not perfect with grammar and spelling but I do make an effort in trying to make myself clearly understood, I find it helps if I desire others to be clear in their responses.
Finally though, is it wrong to encourage others to improve their spelling and grammar, irrespective of the level of education. We are bikers, but we do not need to be illiterate, or barely literate ones.

Do you really need literacy?

Most people assume that you only really need to be proficient at English if you are working in a few specific vocations. Well they are wrong!

I am a builder by trade.
Me thinks to myself when I is a young lad, I can speak English, I'm a builder, why do I need the written word? Why?
Because it is and has been the most important thing in my career, far more so than any of my trade training or my tools. It has been the single most important element in my ability to earn a living.

As a Foreman I was constantly dealing with disputes with sub contractors, architects, engineers and clients whom could not understand documents or even basic contract law. Bringing these disputes to a conclusion (the conclusion that I wanted, screw win-win) required me to put arguments in such a manner that they were clear, logical and irrefutable. My income was directly proportional to my ability to communicate effectively. It really is that simple.

These days, your ability to earn is limited by your ability to communicate. Some years ago, when I started programming I would look at the situations vacant in various trade publications. The people selling software were earning way more than those that wrote it. Why - they were often quite dumb people, how is it that folk that can't even write a line of code or understand the workings of a piece of software sell it, let alone be valued over the ones that have the ability and technical knowledge? Because they can communicate that's why. and a big part of communication is the written word.

I remember seeing a QC being interviewed on TV once. He had obviously had a lot to do with various shall we say, unsavory characters. When asked what separated these people from you and I he replied - Their ability to communicate. They could not effectively communicate their thoughts and ideas verbally, this often led to rage and the use fists instead.

You sometimes hear people vociferous in their condemnation of teaching Maori language in schools. You don't need Maori language they say, it is of no use in this day and age. Well it is. It is about communication. Those that speak multiple languages learn concepts from one and relate them to another. So it does help with communication and I believe were it widely embraced we would see a reduction in violent crime as the ability to communicate effectively increases.

[scumdog]

Everyone knows what people are saying no matter how its typed (i.e., the above is riddled with it ....but the point is, i'm sure people that read it understood it, without needing to critique it all!)

Eventually we DO get what they are trying to say but hooo-boy!, it gets damn frustrating and at times not worth the effort - so the message is not absorbed - or replied to...

[Beemer]

Do you really need literacy?

Most people assume that you only really need to be proficient at English if you are working in a few specific vocations. Well they are wrong!

I am a builder by trade.
Me thinks to myself when I is a young lad, I can speak English, I'm a builder, why do I need the written word? Why?
Because it is and has been the most important thing in my career, far more so than any of my trade training or my tools. It has been the single most important element in my ability to earn a living.

As a Foreman I was constantly dealing with disputes with sub contractors, architects, engineers and clients whom could not understand documents or even basic contract law. Bringing these disputes to a conclusion (the conclusion that I wanted, screw win-win) required me to put arguments in such a manner that they were clear, logical and irrefutable. My income was directly proportional to my ability to communicate effectively. It really is that simple.

etc.

Wonderful post and my point entirely. You do not have to be a wonderful orator or great writer to be able to communicate. Nor, dare I say it, do you need to be able to spell well without a dictionary. However, if you can't communicate, you can't progress. Do you go into Pizza Hut and say "give me a pizza" and don't specify what sort? Do you go into the bank and say "I need money" and not say what for? If you do, how far do you get before someone says "I don't know what you want, mate?"

Those who can communicate well don't die because their power gets cut off, and they don't have people thinking they are thick. Being able to communicate is not a skill only available to the academically gifted, nor should it be. I bet many great communicators today have no recognised academic qualifications.

[KATWYN]

What about persons with (communication) disabilities - Surely they are exempt from this discussion? Are they not deserving of a bit of patience and understanding?

And in electronic discussions, how do we know who these people are ...

[MSTRS:Me]

We don't (unless they tell us). But this is the big, wide world - it is an unforgiving place for all of us. Those genuinely under-literate sorts obviously need to undertake further remedial education. Here is as good a place as any to get it.

[The Stranger:Me]

What about persons with (communication) disabilities - Surely they are exempt from this discussion? Are they not deserving of a bit of patience and understanding?

And in electronic discussions, how do know we who these people are ...

A disability is just that and I would guess that they can't help it. I am not advocating elitism or harassing anyone into "complying".
It is in the end their choice (or perhaps not in the case of a disability) if they wish to pork choply or not.
However my point is that good communication skills are a lot more important than many would realise and should not be undervalued.

[jonbuoy]

Wonderful post and my point entirely. You do not have to be a wonderful orator or great writer to be able to communicate. Nor, dare I say it, do you need to be able to spell well without a dictionary. However, if you can't communicate, you can't progress. Do you go into Pizza Hut and say "give me a pizza" and don't specify what sort? Do you go into the bank and say "I need money" and not say what for? If you do, how far do you get before someone says "I don't know what you want, mate?"

Those who can communicate well don't die because their power gets cut off, and they don't have people thinking they are thick. Being able to communicate is not a skill only available to the academically gifted, nor should it be. I bet many great communicators today have no recognised academic qualifications.

You've lost me now - what are you guys on about?? I thought this was about spelling and grammar?

You'll notice that some of the younger people on here write like they talk - lots of slang and abbreviations thats fine by me - if I can't read it I probably won't be able to help or relate to them anyway so just ignore it. If a bit of someones character comes through in their written words whats the problem? Do you all speak the Queens English with a plum in your mouth? If someone makes a few spelling/grammar errors whats the big deal? Do you have to jump on them and make them look foolish?

How many scientists/engineers/tech's have poor communication skills - lots.

[MotoGirl]

...by looking at the overall structure of someones thread it gives the reader a pretty good idea of where the writer/author is coming from.

Sometimes it does. It depends on how bad the writer's spelling and grammar is. As Scumdog said earlier, if it's really poor, many folks won't give it the time of day.

This whole thread is an interesting debate for me. I work at a software development company and our previous Technical Writer (of all people) used to write internal emails in text language. In this particular case I asked him to consider netiquette because he knew how to write but was being a lazy bastard.

In the case of KB, I think it's unrealistic to expect members to have great spelling and punctuation. After all, some people genuinely can't write, it's not expected of them professionally, and it's not holding them back from being successful on two wheels.