Would you give up your Thou' for an 800cc MotoGP rep?

[imdying]

Actually the key word isn't replica... in fact, the title of this thread (created by oab from a thread split, not by me as it would look) is quite misleading... the 800cc part of my original discussion with oab was actually nothing to with motogp at all.

I merely was commenting that I believe that the thous will naturally get replaced by 800cc bikes with the same sort of focus (lowest weight, highest power)...

In other words, in a few years Honda (for example) will stop producing a CBR1000, and start producing a CBR800 instead... perhaps because they'll eventually get to more power than is usable, they want to avoid being legislated against (the whole human missile deathtrap yada yada thing), they want to reap the benefits oh lighter weight, perhaps also to bask in some of the reflected motogp glory, maybe easier to comply for emissions (not necessarily because they're cleaner, just because they may in the future fit into an easier testing bracket, whatever).

The mack daddys of old were 12-1300cc bikes , then 1100cc bikes, currently we have the 1000cc bikes, it's my personal opinion that the new generation top of the range sportsbikes won't be 1000cc but 800cc... and my top reasoning for that is they want the bikes closer to 150kg instead of 170kg.

/edit: In fact, the whole poll is a crock of shite (even if my 'team is winning' ). What I'm saying is that there isn't going to be an option... if you want the top of the range sportsbike, there will only be the 800... the thous will have naturally evolved into sports tourers like the GSXR1100 did. Some would say blah blah blah I'll always want the torque... whatever... the old guys probably said the same thing about the 1300cc bikes... turns out the GSXR1000 has more torque than those ever did (if not in peak, certainly in spread)... not to mention 220kg GSXR1100 vs 170kg GSXR1000... you only need torque to pull your lard along anyway.

[slowpoke]

Okly dokly, I see where you are coming from...or is that going...er, I understand anyway.....kinda...sorta...almost.......
No matter what was available I'd buy the bestest, baddest sportsbike that I could afford (which ain't much) and if that was an 800 then so be it.
BUT, I can't see the manufacturers volountarily making 800's to the demise of the thou's.
Do car manufacturers reduce the size of their vehicles and engines with the progress of technology? Nope. Look at the progress of say a Commodore or a 3 series BMW over the years. They are substantially bigger in both physical size and engine capacity yet somehow more efficient.
And so it will be with sportsbikes in the future. Amazingly bikes keep getting quicker and lighter and most importantly easier to ride. Who would have thought 20 years ago that you could have a bike like any of the latest 'thou's that wasn't an absolute widow maker, yet they are easier to ride than comparitively slow performance bikes of old. Progress is inevitable so, barring legislation, the trend will continue.

[xwhatsit]

Okly dokly, I see where you are coming from...or is that going...er, I understand anyway.....kinda...sorta...almost.......
No matter what was available I'd buy the bestest, baddest sportsbike that I could afford (which ain't much) and if that was an 800 then so be it.
BUT, I can't see the manufacturers volountarily making 800's to the demise of the thou's.
Do car manufacturers reduce the size of their vehicles and engines with the progress of technology? Nope. Look at the progress of say a Commodore or a 3 series BMW over the years. They are substantially bigger in both physical size and engine capacity yet somehow more efficient.
And so it will be with sportsbikes in the future. Amazingly bikes keep getting quicker and lighter and most importantly easier to ride. Who would have thought 20 years ago that you could have a bike like any of the latest 'thou's that wasn't an absolute widow maker, yet they are easier to ride than comparitively slow performance bikes of old. Progress is inevitable so, barring legislation, the trend will continue.

Well forget about the Commodores and BMW 3s -- car manufacturers may be doing one thing, but Imdying just pointed out that this is already a trend occurring in bikes anyway -- that's why there are 1000s instead of 1300s in the first place.

Engines have got bigger; 650s used to be the thing, they turned into 750s with the 1969 CB750, and then capacities shot up for a while. But in the past twenty years, bleeding edge sportsbikes have become smaller. Why wouldn't the trend continue for now, especially with the MotoGP advertising?

[slowpoke]

Well forget about the Commodores and BMW 3s -- car manufacturers may be doing one thing, but Imdying just pointed out that this is already a trend occurring in bikes anyway -- that's why there are 1000s instead of 1300s in the first place.

Engines have got bigger; 650s used to be the thing, they turned into 750s with the 1969 CB750, and then capacities shot up for a while. But in the past twenty years, bleeding edge sportsbikes have become smaller. Why wouldn't the trend continue for now, especially with the MotoGP advertising?

Nope, sorry I disagree. One of the most legendary sportsbikes of all time, the Vincent Black Shadow was a 998cc twin made in 1948. Or a Brough Superior SS100 in 1924 with 1000cc JAP donks was the schizz at the time.

Yeah, you've got your 'busa's and ZX12R's of recent times but I can't actually think of a serious race winning bike that has been more than 1100cc's in recent times so I can't see what this so called shrinking trend is based on and 100cc is hardly a major reduction in capacity.

Thinking about your 20year example, the Honda RC30 was probably the trickest thing you could buy in 1988 and it was a 750.

The Fireblade was a milestone bike in 1992 (15years ago!) and continued to lead the way until the R1 came out in 1998. The first 'blades were only 900cc and grew to 1000cc along with everything else in the top echelon, so you could argue that bikes are getting bigger in recent times, especially with introduction of the 1200 Ducati next year in WSBK.

Sportsbikes getting smaller? Nup.

[imdying]

Thinking about your 20year example, the Honda RC30 was probably the trickest thing you could buy in 1988 and it was a 750.

Mmmm, capacity limited for racing... sounds familiar.

The Fireblade was a milestone bike in 1992 (15years ago!) and continued to lead the way until the R1 came out in 1998.

Interestingly both of those bikes had larger capacities, but were smaller (lighter) than the previous generations.

Sportsbikes getting smaller? Nup.

The only constant in the last 10 years is bikes getting smaller. Once they compact a thousand as far as possible, then the only option left is to start reducing capacity.

[pritch]

Sorry I don't understand, who are behind what?

Ummm Honda have produced V4 racing bikes, sports bikes, sports touring, and touring bikes, and even cruisers over a considerable number of years now.

With the exception of the current crop of Moto GP bikes none of the other manufacturers have shown much interest in the form. So any that do are already twenty plus years behind Honda. And counting.

All of which was prompted by the comment that "the others will not be far behind".

The much rumoured V5 didn't happen (yet?), so I'm not holding my breath waiting for the new V4. We can but live in hope

[imdying]

Ahhh, now I see what you mean Yes, quite right... I wouldn't want to be competing with Honda if the mack daddy sports bike class moved from IL4s to V4s, they sure do have more experience than all the other factories put together

If there was to be a break to 800s sometime in the next 3-5 years, I would expect it to come from Honda, and given their history, I wouldn't be surprised if it were a V4.

[slowpoke]

The only constant in the last 10 years is bikes getting smaller. Once they compact a thousand as far as possible, then the only option left is to start reducing capacity.

Yeah I see what you mean, but I think maybe the physical size will be limited more by ergonomics and handling rather than engine size.
The difference in size between say a GSXR600, 750 and 1000's is virtually non-existent with many parts being interchangeable, although the smaller bikes can be made slightly lighter due to less stress on components (frames thinner etc), lighter crank etc.
The stability of a physically tiny bike would also be a major concern given a decent amount of horsepower. Shorter wheelbases are going to make 'em more wheely/stoppie prone (that's why some cruisers can outbrake sportsbikes).
The smaller engine/gearbox packages available now has already allowed a trend towards longer swingarms though so we may see more interesting developments as more room is created. It used to be a case of you couldn't fit a compressor and associated complexity/weight to run pneumatic valves but now we are seeing exactly that on the track.
There are interesting times ahead.

[imdying]

The smaller engine/gearbox packages available now has already allowed a trend towards longer swingarms though so we may see more interesting developments as more room is created. It used to be a case of you couldn't fit a compressor and associated complexity/weight to run pneumatic valves but now we are seeing exactly that on the track.
There are interesting times ahead.

That's a good point... the bikes might not actually look smaller, there's just more they can do with mass centralisation and the like.

[cowpoos]

.
The stability of a physically tiny bike would also be a major concern given a decent amount of horsepower. Shorter wheelbases are going to make 'em more wheely/stoppie prone (that's why some cruisers can outbrake sportsbikes).
.

Why I beg to differ good sir... stability of a smaller bike with high horsepower is only really down to geometry... and as for the chasis handling the engines...I'm one of a very few amount of people that has first hand experience racing a 800cc modern high horse power sportsbike...apart from the engine being a fricken handfull as far as power delivery goes...she handles pretty dam good!!! stops as good as any...but is a lil prone to wheelie's...which is a power delivery,geometry issuse that hopefully can be dialed out at some stage!! the concept is a brillent one...as when Shaun Harris built the bike it was very sucsessful!! Jarrod Love has even commented that Shaun was pulling away from him slightly on the main straight of ruapuna...and he was on a highly worked CBR1000RR...with no shortage of grunt...honda jokes aside...honda thous in race form ain't a slow machine!!
In superbike form my bike [shauns harris ex race bike] was making 153hp...I can only guess what Jarrod Loves honda was making...but I dare say it would be on the happy side of 180hp...
The Idea of having the low weight spinning internals help reduce horse power losses by a heap...and also while braking...you can slow them down faster!! even if its by fractions of a fraction of a second..its an advantge..lower gyroscopic effect from all the recipricating internals is also an big advantage for changing direction...the down side from what I've experienced...is you have a bike thats incredibly physically demanding to ride!! [and I mean fucking physically demanding to ride!!!]and involving!! as others that have ridden my bike can contest to [ie:Mr white trash]...its a testament to the skill and fitness of shaun and jason mcquewn who have ridden this machine to good results...not to mention Trashys 4th at the wairarapa hill climb after bugger all time on the bike...and the fact if was tring to hoist the front wheel in 4th gear off the power at times [not desired when racing...it is cool though!!] and being one of the cunty-est bikes to get off the line!!!
I would given the $$$$ love to develop another GSX-R750 [k8 ] to a 800cc bike...and refine it to be easier to ride on the track...make it work like a 600 with more power...as the 600's are but a few seconds a lap or less off superbikes...even at pukie!

[FkNAmerican]

to answer your question: Yes, if Honda were to produce an 800cc bike with the weight (or near to) of the current 600 series in a few years time I would buy it in the blink of an eye. Im already looking long and hard at the GSXR750.......so the idea of an 800 with the weight of the current 600's but the peak power (or near to) of a 1000 is VERY interesting to me.

I know alot of peeps who have ridden liter bikes like the R1 and GSXR1000 for the past few years. Every time they get back on the latest crop of 600's they are shocked at how fun they are to ride especially in the twisties. I can see alot of peeps moving down (or up) to 800's if they big guys start rolling them out.

[imdying]

Some cruisers might be able to apply marginally greater braking forces (on road tyres), what happens in the corner next... there's your trade off swinging back the other way, big time.

[cowpoos]

Some cruisers might be able to apply marginally greater braking forces (on road tyres), what happens in the corner next... there's your trade off swinging back the other way, big time.

I don't think a cruiser could out brake a mofern sports bike....infact I don't think it would have a shit show!!

[sAsLEX]

I don't think a cruiser could out brake a mofern sports bike....infact I don't think it would have a shit show!!

Sprot bikes have issues with the rear floating under heavy braking and a tiny contact patch, compare to a cruiser that might weigh a bit more but has say twice the rubber one the road and no propensity to lift the rear??

[imdying]

It seems unplausible, but there have been tests done, and indeed some of the sportier cruisers can outbrake some sportsbikes. We're talking metres here though, the difference isn't significant. As much as anything, what it shows is that the sportsbikes are being held back by tyre technology, rather than the cruisers wheelbase being particularly good brakers. imho. That's why I mentioned road tyres, as opposed to slicks. Having said that though... redoing the tests with the sportsbikes on top of the line road tyres instead of their oem tyres (iirc the mag that did the test had the bikes in oem condition), would see the sportsbikes back on top. Even that statement is loaded though... back on top makes it sounds like they were far behind the cruisers... they weren't.