Fingerprints

**Mr Merde** · 29th June 2007, 10:18

Originally Posted by Renegade

...
Civil..your are an idiot, ...
Harden up tree huggers

Because I feel that the govenment/authorities are out of control, and no longer do the job they were originally slated to do rather that they are too much into their own self interests, does not make me a "tree hugger". I think you will find if you ever met me, that I am as far from that description as a marshmallow is to a piece of granite.

More and more, in todays societies, I see the megoliths that are governmental deparments caring less and less about the job they are supposed to be doing and more about self perpetuation. I am a concerned citizen and unfortunately I can be a vocal one. This is to my detriment sometimes as I often engage the mouth before the brain has kicked into gear, a common fault amongst those who are passionate about a topic, witness this by the members of this very site.

I honestly believe in most of what I am saying. I say most as sometimes I will just spout some drivel just to get a rise from people. (part time troll).

Therefore in answer to your statement.

Harden Up Tree Huggers

I am not of that ilk and

Why should I.

**Patrick** · 29th June 2007, 10:23

Originally Posted by civil

Why? Ever asked how and when did the state get control over the mode of transport that you use and so restricts your freedom of movement? I am sure it was for a good reason.

Do you know what limitations are placed upon that restriction or control?

I am sure that if we read all the Statues and Acts and Regulations we could find out, but that would come at a significant personal cost. Easyer to just do want we are told, rather than stand up for your rights.

If you do not know your rights and how to get them, then it is the same as if you don't have them.

Driving is not a right, you have to prove your ability and be licenced. You lose this if you are a menace to others. Fair enough? I think so...

Originally Posted by Hitcher

The Police shouldn't be able to take your fingerprints without arresting you. What's next, having one's own personal copper friend who goes everywhere with one just in case one gets some sort of criminal urge?

Might be a little hard to recruit this many, but except for the odd rogue copper then, it would solve all crime problems in an instant....

**civil** · 29th June 2007, 11:16

Please do not take offence with little bits of information I provide in this forum, such as it is a crime to "Drive" other wise you would not need a "Drivers Licence", with the corresponding loss of freedom.

My intention is only to inform those who are want to hear my points related to this topic on the suggested further loss of freedom.

Most people in todays society can not hear the truth of how we are enslaved, as it comes at too high a personal cost to accept that it has happened. I can understand this as few feel they can pay the cost to be free to take responsibility for themselves. The limited liability provided by a loss of freedom has always been sold as a benifit.

Governmental society today functions on the lack of education and apthay in the people. People dont know and dont care.

Tell me all those who say you need a "Drivers Licence" to travel, did you read the relavent Acts, statues and regulations before you went and got it? and if it effects you in some way, why not?

**spudchucka** · 29th June 2007, 11:38

Originally Posted by civil

Most people in todays society can not hear the truth of how we are enslaved,

You're Tariana Turia, I can tell!

**The Pastor** · 29th June 2007, 11:42

They already have my fingerprints on file, so what do I care LoL.

**Mr Merde** · 29th June 2007, 11:44

Originally Posted by civil

...

Most people in todays society can not hear the truth of how we are enslaved, as it comes at too high a personal cost to accept that it has happened.

....

This is the opinion I came to many years ago. I have always exercised the one right allowed to me over this time, my vote.

For what good it has done. At least I feel as though I have made my views known.

Tell me when does benevolence become oppression?

Everyone and everything starts with the greatest of hopes and ideals and somewhere along the way becomes cold , hard and self centred.

Those people that dont we call "saints" or similar platitudes.

No organisation ever survives.

A few quote follow from a great exponent of civil liberties

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. "
Thomas Jefferson

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson

When a man assumes a public trust he should consider himself a public property.
Thomas Jefferson

Rant finished

**Bass** · 29th June 2007, 12:55

Originally Posted by davereid

I think many here miss the point.

Good and popular laws get the co-operation of the people. The police can rely on the community to assist them when they are investigating unpopular crimes.

Virtually everyone approves of laws that restrict behaviour that can do harm to innocent parties, children, or dogs !

But the next tier of laws don't restrict behaviour that harms other people. They restrict behaviour that either harms no-one, or is only harmful to yourself. (ie the BZP ban.)

These laws are generally justified for a concept called "the public good". This is pretty much a financial justification, along the lines of "if you use BZP you might get sick and I have to pay for your health care" or really thin ideas like "if you use BZP you might go nutty and break one of the laws in Cat 1"

Law is the use of force against another person against their will. So unsurprisingly, these type of laws get much lower levels of co-operation from the public. Many of us simply turn a blind eye to the use of cannabis by people we know as an example. The key point is, that laws in this category are NOT universally supported by the community.

The third type of laws are manipulative. They have no real purpose but to shore up the system, and ensure its survival. These type of laws are used in despotic regimes to control the population. Laws in this category are universally hated, but are enforced by police regardless.

The catch is, that laws in the first group can generally be enforced by police who DON'T have draconion powers.

Laws in the LAST group can only be enforced by laws that allow police extra powers, generally associated with ideas like ID cards / systems, checkpoints, etc etc.

We allow the police to be given these powers at our peril, as they enable the govenment levels of control that it may not have the maturity to cope with.

But bad laws need better tools if they are to be enforced.

Im ambivalent.
I think that the coppers, on the whole, do a difficult and sometimes dangerous job, reasonably well.
The historical abuses of civil rights used as examples by some in this thread, did not occur overnight - the deterioration was a slow process. Each small step in this process was seen as harmless in itself, but by the time the accumulated harm was obvious, it was too late.
So where do we draw the line then??
I don't know, but I do know that we need to be on our guard because I see my liberties being slowly eroded, although not to a serious degree YET.
I think Davereid's summary is a good one.
I would be interested in reading some reasoned discussion to refute it, but I haven't seen any yet.

**Patrick** · 29th June 2007, 17:14

Originally Posted by renegade master

They already have my fingerprints on file, so what do I care LoL.

They have mine too...

I don't commit crime, no worries... I am not wanted, no worries... I have a drivers licence, no worries... If I forget it, a thumb print will confirm I am who I am, (instead of Police doing other checks which can hold me up at the roadside for 10-15 minutes while they do so)... no worries.

All these conspiracy theories make good reading... it shows some actually do get out a bit... at least to the movies... or the fiction section in the library...

**Max Preload** · 29th June 2007, 17:29

Originally Posted by scumdog

Listen Polly-anna, back then fingerprints were in their infancy and DNA was the initials of an obscure Yankee filmstar.

And yet they still managed to exterminate them, despite that infancy.

Once they start treating everyone like a criminal, I for one will certainly start acting like one.

**Patrick** · 29th June 2007, 17:36

Originally Posted by awful-truth

Once they start treating everyone like a criminal, I for one will certainly start acting like one.

Crime is rampant, apparently (even according to many on here)... There are so many out there causing havoc, some you can't tell, others you can....

**Hitcher** · 29th June 2007, 18:28

What is the point of the Police swiping a thumbprint on a PDA or any other device, if they don't have your fingerprint records to match it against? There is something deeply not right about this whole proposal.

Why don't they take a DNA swab? It won't be that many more years (thanks to the heal-prick records taken from babies born in New Zealand) that Police and other state-enforcement agencies will be able to spy on people using that database.

Perhaps a barcode tattooed on one's forehead isn't so Orwellian after all. God Bless The State!

**civil** · 29th June 2007, 18:37

Originally Posted by Bass

I think Davereid's summary is a good one.
I would be interested in reading some reasoned discussion to refute it, but I haven't seen any yet.

Don't hold your breath, I have been looking for reasoned argument for some time from those that support the forcing of their will upon others to gain control over them. What you tend to get from such people is the likes of this;