Interesting sights at the top of the Taka's

[James Deuce]

My brother in law was one of the team that went to canada to try the LAV's
and that was his exact point... its not like the army's going to use them to defend itself on home soil.

See above.My other point would be that as NZ taxpayers you are all happy for the NZ Govt to spend your Tax Dollars on equipment that isn't suitable for use in the country where it may need to be used as a defence item?

Peacekeeping is a misnomer. It is still a warzone where peacekeepers are required. I'm not happy with the Govt's priority spend on non-NZ citizens or sending our troops into dangerous conditions in equipment that has yet to prove itself as wholly reliable.

[Blakamin]

See above.My other point would be that as NZ taxpayers you are all happy for the NZ Govt to spend your Tax Dollars on equipment that isn't suitable for use in the country where it may need to be used as a defence item?

Peacekeeping is a misnomer. It is still a warzone where peacekeepers are required. I'm not happy with the Govt's priority spend on non-NZ citizens or sending our troops into dangerous conditions in equipment that has yet to prove itself as wholly reliable.

But even if they did work here, the "defence forces" haven't got enough personnel to defend waiouru let alone the rest of the country. and they know it so why spend more money than we need to for an impossible situation?

[James Deuce]

But even if they did work here, the "defence forces" haven't got enough personnel to defend waiouru let alone the rest of the country. and they know it so why spend more money than we need to for an impossible situation?

Thanks for finishing my point

[pete376403]

Bah a robinson helicopter nooo! Go the army theres a bit of excitement for ppl driving round there

On a trailer, and with no rotor blades, is probably as safe as a Robinson will ever get. They have a shocking accident record. My sons boss binned his new one recently.

[Hoon]

Not quite correct Dave. They don't work well on our terrain at all. They are good value for countries that have lots of nice flat plains, a la Australia, and Nth America. We could very easily have bought BMP2s and BRDMs from Russia, which are rated at 80-90% as effective in modern Battle conditions but substantially more mobile due to being used in places like Afghanistan. They can be fitted with the same armament, comms suite, and accommodation as the LAVs but at a fraction of the cost. We were offered 150 BMPs for 10 Million US.

There is no way the NZ Army could've bought Russian vehicles - that line is often spouted by chest-beating politicians but the fact is it was never an option due to ongoing contractual, supply, maintenance and training obligations from a foreign speaking country in recession not to mention zero integration with our allies.

Sure theres also the wheeled vs tracked debate but the Army is now moving towards a highly mobile more urban type of army. Did you ever see the old M113's rolling along the highways?? We've only had the lavs for a few months and they've already been seen all up and down the countryside.

The LAVs are also high tech, better than the ones the Aussies have and just the same as the US's latest batch so we are right up with the play now. Using the same equipment means we can share the knowledge and integrate seamlessly. NZ Armys strongest asset is its infantry Battalions however if we want to be any use to an Allied force we have to be able to keep up on the battlefield.
The first batch of NZLAV crews fresh out of training have just finished a combined exercise with the Aussies up in Darwin where they worked with their tanks. Early next year there is another big combined exercise in Napier where the Aussies are coming over and bringing their blackhawks too amongst other toys.

The NZ Army has no hope of defending the country on its own - we would need the help of our allies, but if we want them to help us we have got to be of some help to them also.

[F5 Dave]

Perhaps considering the most likely future threat to our shores (ohh I dunno, lets say collection of islands to the left & up a bit becoming increasingly unstable) a bunch of armed coastal boats & some air support would be a start.

[James Deuce]

There is no way the NZ Army could've bought Russian vehicles - that line is often spouted by chest-beating politicians but the fact is it was never an option due to ongoing contractual, supply, maintenance and training obligations from a foreign speaking country in recession not to mention zero integration with our allies.

Sure theres also the wheeled vs tracked debate but the Army is now moving towards a highly mobile more urban type of army. Did you ever see the old M113's rolling along the highways?? We've only had the lavs for a few months and they've already been seen all up and down the countryside.

The LAVs are also high tech, better than the ones the Aussies have and just the same as the US's latest batch so we are right up with the play now. Using the same equipment means we can share the knowledge and integrate seamlessly. NZ Armys strongest asset is its infantry Battalions however if we want to be any use to an Allied force we have to be able to keep up on the battlefield.
The first batch of NZLAV crews fresh out of training have just finished a combined exercise with the Aussies up in Darwin where they worked with their tanks. Early next year there is another big combined exercise in Napier where the Aussies are coming over and bringing their blackhawks too amongst other toys.

The NZ Army has no hope of defending the country on its own - we would need the help of our allies, but if we want them to help us we have got to be of some help to them also.

They weren't from Russia. Certainly originally designed and built in Russia.

I used to see Scorpions and M113s rolling through Glenfield in Auckland on the way to Hobsonville and Whenuapai 4 or 5 times a year as a kid. On road treads too, not on the back of a transporter.The debate isn't about tracked or wheeled, it is the suitability of a weapons platform for it's most common theatre of operations, which in NZ's case is increasingly becoming rugged Pacific and Melanesian islands, not big open flat Australian or North American plains.

The only reason for requiring better urban operational capability from the military in NZ is to quell civil unrest. Bear in mind that the NZ Army is the only arm without a Royal warrant, and reports directly to the Prime Minister's office.

[James Deuce]

Perhaps considering the most likely future threat to our shores (ohh I dunno, lets say collection of islands to the left & up a bit becoming increasingly unstable) a bunch of armed coastal boats & some air support would be a start.

You ain't just whistling Dixie.

[TwoSeven]

I am in two minds about the lavs. I got the feeling they purchased them then tried to figure out what to use them for. Some of the justifications I have heard - from a military point of few were just plain rubbish.

However.

If they had said. We want transport for our troops that offers a little more protection than a soft-sided truck, and can perform a similar role as a humvee. Then I would have been ok with that - a LAV is more than ideal.

But - that thing about having a wheel blown off. When troops are in an armoured wheeled vehicle - they have to wear a 4 point seatbelt that straps them into the seat (none do). Because when a bomb (mine) goes off under the vehicle it splatters everyone around inside (think of a person holding a baby in a car crash - then imagine said baby has 60kg of equipment strapped to it).

I dont think they could even afford to outfit them with modern electronics. I would have liked to see a thales contract go out at least.

There were other statements along those lines - that just plain didnt add up and I think thats why people love to hate them.

Background on the LAVIII

I do agree with the purchase of the UNIMOGs tho - although they really should address their standard operating procedures and teach the troops how to drive them. Would probably stop the beggers driving over cliffs like they have been doing. I'd would have liked to see them get a few vikings - think they would be better - but would operate along with the UNIMOGs.

I'm not keen on any US equipment - most of it is rubbish at the best of times. All the good stuff they use is european anyhow.

I think a better vehicle to use would have been the british warrior. But like all things - I guess the lavs were purchased because they were cheaper to operate in the long run.

The warrior

What really 'p**ses' me off (scuze the language) is that NZ has no defense engineering contracts/firms/industry. Not only do I think that there is a huge market for kiwis working creating defense equipment (not just guns and ammo - but heavy industry vehicles), but I think the knowledge is here for newer and better things to be created. It would majorly benefit the local economy if for example a firm produced military grade trucks, trailors, tractors and other such engineering equipment for civilian use (as most defense contractors do).

Heck - even the kiwi uniforms are just jeans and t-shirt compared to what others are starting to look at.

[Blakamin]

Thanks for finishing my point

Any time!!

What really 'p**ses' me off (scuze the language) is that NZ has no defense engineering contracts/firms/industry. Not only do I think that there is a huge market for kiwis working creating defense equipment (not just guns and ammo - but heavy industry vehicles), but I think the knowledge is here for newer and better things to be created. It would majorly benefit the local economy if for example a firm produced military grade trucks, trailors, tractors and other such engineering equipment for civilian use (as most defense contractors do).

would probably happen if we had more of a need for things... but we can buy them OS cheaper, and stay in other country's good books, so to speak
How many LAV's did we buy???

[sAsLEX]

just a point tiggerz i think it was, the new navy ships coming in soon are being built by some aussy place, with some of the smaller ones being built up north in whagnarai sp? and modules for the other ships being built there to.

Been in a m113 and they were the shit.

[LB]

.
I don't know shit about the army and their vehicles so I won't comment.

Do the guys in the vehicles wear uniforms?

Stonechucker: I hope you're feeling better now. It was a great day to be out on the hill.
.

[TwoSeven]

I hope the navy does get some work done here. Dont they outfit the ships here or something ?

Thats why I was annoyed they didnt buy those F16s or whatever they were. The maintenance crews (could have been outsourced to air-nz) would have been able to service other nationalities aircraft as well.

Sometimes I think the government doesnt understand that sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Spending money to build up skills and experience and industry that can then be used later to earn even more money doesnt seem to be a graspable concept for the government.

[Coldkiwi]

my main beef with the LAVatories is
a) damn expensive for a relatively soft vehicle compared to alternatives. I know buying ex-russian equipment would've been a bit of a big finger to the US but the reality is the money saved could've been spent on making the russian equipment even better and replacing any electronics to integrate with the US and Aussie.
b) won't fit in a damn Hercules (still not upgraded despite being wel over the hill) with the standard running suspension setup and apparently it takes over 30 minutes to lower or raise the beast... just what you want when unloading in a hot zone eh Ho-hoon? Maybe we'll just have to ship them by fruit container ships.
c) seems to have an absolutley woeful combat record in anything vaguely resembling and abrasive or non temperate climate.

[Coldkiwi]

just a point tiggerz i think it was, the new navy ships coming in soon are being built by some aussy place, with some of the smaller ones being built up north in whagnarai sp? and modules for the other ships being built there to.

Been in a m113 and they were the shit.

A & G Price in Thames used to do a fair bit of defence engineering for NZ and were casting wheels for Singaporean tracked vehicles when I visited in 2001. But if theres no budget for the work, no ones going to keep the staff and expertise going to try and keep any hopeful jobs on shore I suppose