Harry Duynhoven

[Stevo]

Maybe that was a bit harsher than I meant it to be. I just hate the fact that more ideas like this are actually brought in costing Joe average yet more money, when it is probably not Joe who is the problem. Certainly repeat offenders are and if I had the solution to this police and society would surely want to know!

I honestly don't have as much a problem with police as I do with people who tow boats!!!!! I find they are generally the most goddamn ignorant pricks on the road. It is as if they are on a mission to get from Chch - Nelson or Marlborough as fast as they can and pulling over to let someone past (Even without a boat) is someone who could potentially beat them to their favourite possy. Grrrrrrrrr. Truckies generally I find are the opposite.
Tonight on my way home I took a slight detour by heading to Havelock then thru Queen Charlotte Drive (on the way Nelson) and halfway down the first big tight and twisty hill I come tearing up behind a fuel tanker. I was actually happy to sit there and cruise down behind him, but he on the very next corner pulled out wide and indicating to let me thru. "What a Bloke!" No way I woulda been able to pass otherwise.

I guess my point if ever I was to have one is that in general if we were all more courteous to each other on the roads "We could actually get from A to B without raising speed limits or driving faster, but.............. but...................That would be in a Perfect world I guess!"

Again 10/10 for that driver tonight tho. :twothumbsup:

[spudchucka]

The problem I believe stems from our Dumbass joke 'scratch and win' licence tests and just as stupid driven tests which seem to take no skill to pass.
But as usual it's catch22,make it too hard and they'll just drive without one....

The problem stems from peoples attitudes to road safety. A belief that "it won't happen to me" or "I'm a good driver and I can handle the speed" or "My car is superior and can safely be driven at higher speeds" etc etc etc has become part of the NZ driver mentality. I agree with education and a higher standard of driver licence testing but I'm not convinceed that these things alone will change the national attitude towards road safety.

[spudchucka]

For my part I would sooner see the the 50k limit raised to 60k's with 63k's ticketed or perhaps even less

Mate, that is pretty much what you have now. An official speed limit of 50 with a ten kph tolerance, ticket at 61kph. You're saying ticket 63 or perhaps a little less, sounds pretty much like what you have now???

I am also of the opinion that when [I]passing a vehicle that requires traveling on the wrong side of the road then speed restrictions should not apply

Speed restrictions should still apply but with a higher discretionary tolerance.

[rodgerd]

Hardly a practical idea and certainly very costly. Maybe you should run for government as you would cost us all MORE money AND create jobs!!

What other great ideas do you have???

So if it costs you an extra 80 bucks a year, but gets idiots off the road, it's not worth doing?

You obviously don't set much value on your life. Ride with a second hand helmet from the Sally Army, as well?

[scumdog]

"Can the same logic be applied to speeding? How many people would drive at much higher speeds than they do now if police weren't enforcing the speed limit? How would that effect the annual road carnage?"

As per the above quote, (and this is aimed at the whinging element) what speed limit do they dream should be allowed on our roads? and how would they dream it could be enforced? (like without speed-cameras, radar, lasers and the resultant monetary penalties)

[riffer]

Speed restrictions should still apply but with a higher discretionary tolerance.

Again, you make sense Spud.

I have no problem with the speed limits. I believe police are out there every day on the roads, and have a better sense of what the roads conditions are like, and what is acceptable and not acceptable speed.

Speed is not about staying under the speed limit. It's about appropriate speed for the conditions. 100km/hr on the motorway is different to 100km/hr on Middleton Road (between Johnsonville and Tawa).

I can (and do) do 100km/hr on both. But one's a whole lot safer.

Most police are not stupid. It's more the exact opposite. I just wish their superiors would credit thim with the intelligence they have and let them have greater discretion.

I miss the gold old days where we knew the local coppers and they were happy to pull us up for doing the odd burn down the local roads and give us a good lecture.

In fact the local copper used to ring my parents up so I'd get another lecture when I got home.

That had more effect on me and I had more respect for the local constabulary because of that, than some policeman pulling me up for doing 8 km/hr over the limit and fining me $90.

[rodgerd]

In fact the local copper used to ring my parents up so I'd get another lecture when I got home.

Wouldn't you rather have the ticket 8)

But more to the point: which is more likely to make you act in line with the law.

And how far to we extend this principle? If someone lifts your wallet, nicks $20, and leaves it at the cop shop how would you react if the police applied "discretionary power" and told you they wouldn't bother to arrest the theif? Or if you owned a dairy and got told the police wouldn't bother with anyone shoplifting unless they got a certain dollar amount?

[riffer]

Wouldn't you rather have the ticket 8)

But more to the point: which is more likely to make you act in line with the law.

And how far to we extend this principle? If someone lifts your wallet, nicks $20, and leaves it at the cop shop how would you react if the police applied "discretionary power" and told you they wouldn't bother to arrest the theif? Or if you owned a dairy and got told the police wouldn't bother with anyone shoplifting unless they got a certain dollar amount?

I'm not talking about anything other than appropriate speed for the conditions and appropriate methods of handling it, give that the police have at least as much intelligence as any other person, maybe more ... let's not confuse the issue rogerd...

[scumdog]

Wouldn't you rather have the ticket 8)

But more to the point: which is more likely to make you act in line with the law.

And how far to we extend this principle? If someone lifts your wallet, nicks $20, and leaves it at the cop shop how would you react if the police applied "discretionary power" and told you they wouldn't bother to arrest the theif? Or if you owned a dairy and got told the police wouldn't bother with anyone shoplifting unless they got a certain dollar amount?

You're making WAY too much sense here for THIS site, where is the rampant rabid ravings from all the nay-sayers out there????

[scumdog]

Well said Posh......however you are using an intelligent, logical approach, something some members neither understand nor consider in their dogmatic approach to this topic.

I agree, the 'speed' thing is a bit of a misnomer but it is easier than saying "slow down and drive to the conditions" or similar.
As I've said before, a lot of so called 'drivers' (and 'riders') out there would be out of their depth in a sideshow dodgem.

Speed killed nobody but the stopping from speed does kill quite a few, the faster the speed - the more likely such stop will kill, ergo less speed = less death.


Some of you guys on this site attribute too much intelectual ability to too many.
Yesterday went to a crash (low SPEED - no real injury) driver in ute with only rear brakes, no drivers door, outboard fuel tank on seat beside driver hooked up to engine, passengers door tied shut with string, no windscreen, bald tyres etc.
The plan went wrong when driver 'planted boot' and ute got up to a speed undesirable by the 'driver' and he hit the brakes - that's when he pulled the steering-wheel off the column 'cos there was no nut holding it there (just the one with his hands on it).
Ute skidded on the dry-seal with both rear wheels locked up until it left the road and hit a power-pole about 35 metres after lock-up!!!
Yup, throw the speed limit out the window, and the need for a licence,and the need for a W.O.F ..... :spudwhat:

[Pwalo]

Lot's of interesting input on this one. IMHO speed is always going to be a rather contentious issue. It's simplistic at best to blame speed for causing accidents, because all accidents are mistakes (ok I guess a few may be deliberate), or errors of judgement. And of course speed as such isn't the problem, it's trying to stop or take evasive action from too high a speed that's gonna hurt.

If we (drivers & riders) didn't make any mistakes, modulated our speed to road conditions, didn't drink too much alcohol, maintained our vehicles, understood the road code, had some consideration for other road users, etc life would be a breeze for everyone.

Of course it isn't going to happen. We all love to go fast (even my GS will get me banned if I'm a naughty boy), and we all tend to have inflated ideas of our own ability to control our vehicles until we stuff up somewhere.

Whatever your opinion on speed limits, and other road rules, the simple fact is that those are the rules. I can choose to ignore them if I choose but I can't complain if I get ticketed etc, even if I feel that my ability etc is being questioned.

Sorry about the rambling but people keep interrupting me for work purposes (WTF!!!).

[rodgerd]

I'm not talking about anything other than appropriate speed for the conditions and appropriate methods of handling it, give that the police have at least as much intelligence as any other person, maybe more ... let's not confuse the issue rogerd...

I'm not confusing anything.

The law, as written, says it is illegal to go over 100 km/h on the open road. Period. The only exceptions are for emergency services and the like. There's nothing there that says, "unless you think it's safe to do 120", just like the law says, "you can't steal stuff from a shop", not, "unless you're broke."

What you're asking for is that the police ignore the law when it suits *you*. I want to know how happy you'll be if they start ignoring other laws when it suits them, or other people.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's bloody silly that on motorways built to a 160 km/h standard (as Transit used to build them), with solid median barriers and 3 lanes, that we have the same limit as the back blocks. But that's the law. If I chose to break it, I have to take my lumps, and whining about how the police shouldn't enforce it is bullshit.

People are quick to complain when we see stories about others failing to take responsibility for themselves (Taria Turiana blaming everything wrong with every Maori in New Zealand on white people alwas gets me going, for example), but this is one area where many of those very same people seem to be very good at coming up with 1001 excuses for not taking responsibility for their own actions.

[Ghost Lemur]

Speed is not about staying under the speed limit. It's about appropriate speed for the conditions. 100km/hr on the motorway is different to 100km/hr on Middleton Road (between Johnsonville and Tawa).

Funny you should mention that road. My first ever accident was on that road. Went though the infamous s-bend and rolled down the bank. Sole surviver from 4 cars that had done the same thing in one month.

As for the topic.

Speed limits are necessary. Discretionary powers should be available to police. People should NOT be under the impression that driving is a right, it's not it's a privilege. One that should be taken away from those who don't deserve it. Repeat offenders should be band for life, with jail time if they're caught breaking the life ban. Insurers and govt should be working together so that you can get premium discounts for doing regular or further driver/rider training (similar to what is done for no claims).

I think what I'm talking about over all is just common sense (really a contridiction isn't it, common implying average, at yet the average person seem to be distinctly lacking in having any sense whatsoever).

[SPman]

Werent limited speed zones a discretionary variable speed limit - something like ...speed limit 50mph but reduced to 30 when there is poor visibility,bad road conditions, etc!

Oops, theres that word discretionary again - something thats not black and white to the beauracrats, so cant be rigidly enforced!

[riffer]

I'm not confusing anything.

The law, as written, says it is illegal to go over 100 km/h on the open road.

I get your point rogerd, and agree 99% with it.

Where I am referring to discretion is, to quote my previous example of Middleton Road, which, along with Makara Road, are the only two rural roads in the Wellington Area where you can legally do 100km/hr.

Pedants could include Peakakariki Hill Road, Moonshine Road and Akatarawa Road, but they are not 100km/hr for the full length.

Anyway, you could legally ride on those roads at 100, but its probably not safe. In fact 80 is sometimes not safe.

However, you can ride at 115km/hr on the Porirua motorway safely, but get done for speeding.

And another of my pet peeves is the speed camera vans which frequent the passing lanes on River Road (Upper Hutt). Totally unnecessary. Cars are stuck behind idiots who travel at 80, then accelerate as soon as there's a passing lane to 100-ish. You have to do 120 to pass them and sometimes its just safer to wind on the gas, an on my bike you're at 140 as you go past, immediately releasing the throttle. I'm at 140 for maybe 5 seconds.

Do we consider time exposed to danger in speed statistics? No! In LTSA's opinion, you are better off taking 30 seconds to pass at 100km/hr on the wrong side of the road, than to spend 5-10 seconds at 120-140 and then slow down. Even accounting for covering more distance per second at 140, I would speculate that I would spend less time in a passing lane or on the wrong side of the road than if I was doing 100.

However, speed is speed is speed. Exceed 100 and you are in the wrong.

Again, driver education is more important than attacking those who exceed the limits (which I agree are there as an example of a safe average maximum speed for everyone to travel at.)

And what about posted advisory corner limits? Are these enforceable? I've not heard of it happening, but is it possible to be ticketed for exceeding the posted advisory speed? Or would this come under driving without undue care and attention to other road users?

This is where I'm coming from...