Police Officers' expertise sought

[Sanx]

I'm trying to help SkidMark get his bike back after it was impounded following his charge for dangerous driving a couple of weeks back. As far as I can tell, the bike was impounded with no legal grounds to do so, but if there's an officer who can correct me or refer me to at least the correct portions of legislation, I'd appreciate it.

I've had a couple of conversations with him about what he was actually charged with. There was one charge only, dangerous driving. He has no fines outstanding, no warrants outstanding and he was charged with either of the Land Transport Amendment Act 2005 (so-called Boy Racer Act) offences which qualify for an instant 28-day impound. At the time he was stopped, Mark had a valid licence that had not been suspended, he was not disqualified and he had not previously been forbidden to ride by a Police officer.

Although I don't yet have the details, Mark has called the Central Communications centre in Auckland to find the station at which the officer who issued the ticket is based. We're going to try to talk to him or his superior to find out who we might need to speak with to get the bike released. Can any of the officers here point me in the right direction? Is there a specific unit that deals with impounded vehicles, or is it simply handled by the officer who issued the ticket? Do we need to speak to the officer's sergeant in the first instance?

I've never had to attempt to get a vehicle out of impound before, and whilst I'm capable of reading bits of legislation, I'm not clear on Police procedures.

SkidMark's indicated he's going to try to change his ways. Perhaps you guys can help me help him do this.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Constable Plod]

Contact the local station to the offence (New Market from memory) and ask to be put through the impounds officer. That person, usually a Senior Sergeant will be responsible for all appeals regarding impounds. They are likely to be based at Auckland Central. Skid will need to obtain an appeal form from a staion and complete it including having it sworn as true and correct in front of a JP.

What does the impound form state the reason for impound is. My guess is 'unneccessary display of acceleration or speed' if so then the impond is legal.

[FROSTY:Me]

Im happy to stand corrected but I thought dangerous driving meant instant loss of licence and vehicle impound

[Sanx]

Contact the local station to the offence (New Market from memory) and ask to be put through the impounds officer. That person, usually a Senior Sergeant will be responsible for all appeals regarding impounds. They are likely to be based at Auckland Central. Skid will need to obtain an appeal form from a staion and complete it including having it sworn as true and correct in front of a JP.

What does the impound form state the reason for impound is. My guess is 'unneccessary display of acceleration or speed' if so then the impond is legal.

He was not given the impound form, which doesn't help matters much. However, I would have thought a reason for an impound must match any charges laid. He wasn't charged with either of the "Unnecessary display of..." offences. Is this assumption incorrect?

I've got the name of the Impound Sergeant at Auckland Central. But he's not answering his phone right now.

[Indiana_Jones]

I can't seem to find any grounds to impound the bike on dangerous driving:

"The vehicle you're driving will be impounded if you're caught driving when:


-you've been disqualified from holding or obtaining a driver licence
-your driver licence has been suspended or revoked
-you don't hold (or have never held) a driver licence or your licence has expired, and you have been forbidden to drive by a police officer until you have obtained or renewed your licence.

Your vehicle can (and usually will) also be impounded if you're caught racing (eg, drag racing) or performing 'street car stunts' (eg, wheel spins); or if you commit a drink drive offence and have two previous drink drive convictions in the last four years."

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/factsheets/63.html

And,

"If your car is caught in an illegal street race, an unnecessary exhibition of speed, or a burnout, Police may impound the vehicle for 28 days at your expense - effective immediately."

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/road/boyraceract.html



If they wanna be dicky, they could use the "unnecessary exhibition of speed" clause for impounding the bike?

-Indy

[Sanx]

Im happy to stand corrected but I thought dangerous driving meant instant loss of licence and vehicle impound

I'm happy to stand corrected as well, but I don't think it does. The LTSA list various driving offences and related penalties here. It covers Dangerorous Driving (scroll down about two thirds of the page):

The courts deal very seriously with drivers who drive carelessly, recklessly or dangerously.
Severe penalties can be imposed if you are convicted of one of these offences. The penalties will be especially severe if you hurt or kill someone, whether or not you have taken alcohol or drugs.
Penalties may include:

• a maximum fine of $20,000
• maximum imprisonment of five years
• disqualification of your driver licence.

Nothing about instant suspension or impounding of a vehicle, and these things are covered (and the reasons for them given) a couple of paragraphs later.

Mandatory suspension

Your licence will be suspended on the spot if:

• a police officer (but not a speed camera) detects you exceeding a permanently posted speed limit by more than 40 km/h or a temporary speed limit by more than 50 km/h
• you commit one of the alcohol-related offences covered by mandatory suspension.

Your licence will be suspended for 28 days and you will also have to face court-imposed penalties for your offence.

Impounding vehicles

A police officer will impound your vehicle on the spot if you are caught:

• driving while disqualified
• driving while your licence has been suspended
• driving without a licence, or with an expired licence, and you have previously been stopped by a police officer and forbidden to drive.

Your vehicle will be impounded for 28 days and you will have to face court-imposed penalties for your offence.

Whilst I understand that the LTSA's statements don't cover all situations, it seems that provided the charge was solely dangerous driving, the vehicle should not have been impounded. Mark also still has his licence (but not for long, probably).

[Sanx]

If they wanna be dicky, they could use the "unnecessary exhibition of speed" clause for impounding the bike?

I think that's possible, but I would have thought Mark would need to be charged with that offence. From http://www.police.govt.nz/service/ro...rdetails.html:

If the Police find someone racing or performing wheel spins, what will they do?

An officer may either:

• charge the person (i.e. the person has to go to Court); or
• charge the person AND impound the vehicle.

Alternatively, the officer may choose simply to issue a warning (Yeah. Right.)

From this - Mark has to be charged with one of the offences under the Boy Racer Act - the impound cannot be applied without it; which seems reasonable and logical.

[Constable Plod]

First things first, there is no such act of legislation as 'The Boy Racer Act' therefore you cannot be charged with an offence under a non existent act.

It seems to me that the Dangerous driving charge may have been laid to cover the 'unneccessary display of speed' etc. There is a specific charge for taking part in a race but you can still be charged with a related offence such as reckless, careless or dangerous.

I have only been involved with one incidence of the 'boy racer legislation' so have not practised its use regularly. For this reason you will need to forgive my knowledge of its finer points.

My first plan of attack would be to get a copy of the impound form and go from there. Without that there are too many unanswered questions to provide any useable advice.

Keep us posted. I am currently on leave but will be dropping by the station frequently so can research any question then.

[Sanx]

First things first, there is no such act of legislation as 'The Boy Racer Act' therefore you cannot be charged with an offence under a non existent act.

I understand there's no act called "The Boy Racer Act". However, when the Land Transport (Unauthorised Street and Illegal Drag Racing) Amendment Act 2003 (not 2005, as I originally stated) was passed, it was widely refered to as "The Boy Racer Act" because of the introduction of offences specifically designed to target things boy racers habitually get up to.

Keep us posted. I am currently on leave but will be dropping by the station frequently so can research any question then.

Thank you.

[marty]

it would be extremely out of the ordinary for no impound notice to be given, unless the cop had run out, but there would have been plenty at the station anyway.

uneccesary display of speed or acceleration cannot be laid without another offence being committed - it's no offence to accelerate quickly to 50km/h in a 50k zone, or through a green light. if a red light or excess speed (or whatever else) is included, the offence is complete.

are you sure it was impounded? was it just towed as it was considered not roadworthy?

[don rocard]

The police are notorious for ,not even listening,so let them do their thing as you wont win against these churls.

[peasea]

If they wanna be dicky, they could use the "unnecessary exhibition of speed" clause for impounding the bike?

-Indy

Usually (but not always) there is a good reason to impound a vehicle and appeals will most likely fall on deaf ears.

However, if they want to be "dicky" they'll dream something up and impound whatever the hell they feel like impounding.

[Grub]

The police are notorious for ,not even listening,so let them do their thing as you wont win against these churls.

Before you accuse them of having a closed mind, perhaps you should look at your own?

[Sanx]

it would be extremely out of the ordinary for no impound notice to be given, unless the cop had run out, but there would have been plenty at the station anyway.

He claims he was not given a copy, and when he asked the officer who'd ordered the impound, she said she didn't have a copy she could give him. One of them's telling porkies, for certain.

uneccesary display of speed or acceleration cannot be laid without another offence being committed - it's no offence to accelerate quickly to 50km/h in a 50k zone, or through a green light. if a red light or excess speed (or whatever else) is included, the offence is complete.

Well, he was charged with dangerous driving, so there's the other offence. However, Mark maintains that he was charged only with dangerous driving; nothing else.

are you sure it was impounded? was it just towed as it was considered not roadworthy?

Again, as I haven't seen the documentation yet, no. However, Mark says he's received a letter from the impound place stating that he can pick up his vehicle on the 25th September (28 days after the offence) on payment of the storage fee. The fact that the vehicle will only be released after a certain date points to it being impounded rather than simply towed due to it not being roadworthy.

What Mark needs to do is either get hold of the Impound Sergeant (who doesn't answer his phone or return calls) or get hold of the officer who initially impounded the vehicle and get a copy of the impound form. The form must contain a reason the vehicle being impounded (copy of the form here). There are only seven valid reasons ...

What I'd like to know is that if the vehicle was impounded for 'boy racer' offences (unnecessary displays of speed or acceleration, or causing a vehicle to undergo a sustained lack of traction) would Mark have to be charged with those same offences. The LTSA fact sheet I linked to earlier would indicate that the officer can either lay the charge, or lay the charge and impound the vehicle; i.e. they cannot impound the vehicle without laying the appropriate charge.

Incidentally, the grounds for appeal for the impound also includes the officer not complying with the notice requirements set out in section 96(2) of the Land Transport (Offences and Penalties) Regulations 1999. The officer must give a copy of the impound notice to the driver unless he's fled the scene. As Mark was in custody, it's obvious that he didn't flea and he should have been given one. They must 'as soon as practicable' also post a copy of the impound notice to the registered owner of the vehicle at the address recorded on the Register of Motor Vehicles - which hasn't been done, unless 'as soon as practicable' means it takes two weeks. Mark assures me the vehicle is in his name and is registered at his home address. The officer also needs to give the impound facility a copy of the impound notice. Mark's going to contact them to see if they have their copy, and if he can get a copy of it. The officer must also retain a copy of the notice for twelve months, which makes her statement that she didn't have the notice any more unlikely.

[Sanx]

The police are notorious for ,not even listening,so let them do their thing as you wont win against these churls.

Which is qhy you do your research and make sure that you've got your bases covered before you go in. Which is what I'm doing. If I think it's a hopeless case, I won't bother.