Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Waylander]

Oh groan, I was enjoying the dabate.

I am far too hungover to be bothered. If he wants to be an ass then he can go right ahead and be one.

[The Stranger:Me]

Wrong on the Islam bit there and are those people, from within christian ranks, that drag you out of bed on a saturday morning any less expansionist? They offer it in any language of your choice and a mass conversion before 8pm, if you so wish (so you can attend sunday service) in what ever colour you like. So how many Muslims have you had banging on your door? There is more to this than what you will find on CNN you know..!

I accept that I am a simple person terbang, so please explain this verse from the koran to me

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden--such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled."

I haven't had the pleasure of christians trying to drag me out of bed on a Saturday so I really can't comment about that one, however they wont be doing it twice.

[Ocean1]

As requested.
However I rarely place a high value on a test which is on a subjective subject. Unlike say a math exam where the answers will usually be right or wrong there is no right answer here and circumstances may dictate a different answer than I would have given in many of the questions.

So why bother using someone else’s pink crayons to paint your personal picture? The questionnaire used to produce the data set for that survey is more emotively spun than most I've seen. It paints me quite a different colour to most other similar tools.

Try this one, so simple there’s little room for spin… http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

What colour are you now?

[The Stranger:Me]

So why bother using someone else’s pink crayons to paint your personal picture? The questionnaire used to produce the data set for that survey is more emotively spun than most I've seen. It paints me quite a different colour to most other similar tools.

Simply because III asked for it. I realised from the first question that it was not what I would consider a valid test however.

Try this one, so simple there’s little room for spin… http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

What colour are you now?

Quite remarkable how much I had changed since the last time I took one of these tests this morning.

[idleidolidyll]

I'm more interested in where you got that singularly warped piece of propaganda from. And why libertairanism is considered as such a threat as to be described as responsible for quite such a wide range of influence...

libertarian?

when did i ever blame liberatarians for such a thing?

look at the charts, the ACT party is neutral on that index and the violence comes from fascism be it left or right wing

[idleidolidyll]

Nope, no confusion here !

Socialists feel sorry for those at the bottom of the heap.

They are sure that they will make the world a better place if they lift the standard of living for those people by giving them health and education and a guaranteed minimum income.

They may actually be right !

But they also thinks its OK (good actually) to fund this noble idea by taking the money off thoses members of the community who aren't at the bottom of the heap.

And they are quite happy to take this money by force, even vast amounts of it, with lots of productive New Zealanders losing well over 50% of their top income in taxes.

No, we feel compassion for humanity. It's a ridiculous myth that socialists are not hard working people.
The right wing fascists like to spin lots of those myths; they're deadly afraid that humanitarianism eats away at their profit margins.

[idleidolidyll]

I'm more interested in where you got that singularly warped piece of propaganda from. And why libertairanism is considered as such a threat as to be described as responsible for quite such a wide range of influence...

what propaganda?

read the damn website; it's in english and very well explained.

unlike simplistic left/right measures, it takes much more into account and gives a clearer picture. It's obvious that something is drastically wrong with the left/right system or measure given there is so much confusion and ignorance with regard to terminology, beliefs and positioning.

[idleidolidyll]

But they also thinks its OK (good actually) to fund this noble idea by taking the money off thoses members of the community who aren't at the bottom of the heap.

And they are quite happy to take this money by force, even vast amounts of it, with lots of productive New Zealanders losing well over 50% of their top income in taxes.

The worse way is the Yank way. In effect any yank who wants the same kinds of services qwe get must pay up to $1000 per month in insurances. That's why so many don't have insurance and why so many miss out.

Add to that the fact that Yanks are paying this out of their post tax income while ours is from pre tax income and the number can be multiplied by the Yank tax %

Studies, particularly in health cover, show that NZ's system, the one we like to moan about, reaches more people more effectively than almost any other in the developed world. The only point yanks beat us on is the ability of the extremely rich to buy extremely expensive treatments (and wealthy Kiwis can do that anyway by travelling to the US)

Ditto ACC etc

[idleidolidyll]

as socialisim grows, the state grows nearer to bankruptcy..
new york in the 60's is a classic case, as is the collapse of the USSR.
i heavily disagree with your ideals on economics, protectionisim just creates uncompeditive business globally.
we must provide what the world wants, its supply and demand.

over the last 20 odd years as we have let down our barriers and bought into that nonsense, our real incomes have dropped drastically along with our quality of life index. Foreign companies have exported our profits, monopolised our business sectors and paid us minimum wages: lose lose situation.

[Indiana_Jones]

The thing I find annoying/puzzling is that people seem to think Tory's only care about money.

-Indy

[Robert Taylor]

John Fizgerald Kennedy quoted to the effect...''it is not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country''

Too many people look to Government to bail them out or to provide some form of gravy train and dont stop to think where the money comes from in the first place.

Personally I hate the term Socialism with a vengeance, the word is historically synonomous with failure. As I have said in the past ''social conscience'' and a handup rather than a handout. People at the top are ripping the system off, so are many at the bottom and it is the middle that is paying for all this.

Look at Helen Mugabes overseas junkets...the great pacifist of our time is also the great hypocrite of our time. Filmed at many international commemorations to past conflicts, where good people infinitely better than her gave their lives in ( some ) justified conflicts against extremism.

There is a consistent theme that I am sure everyone can agree upon, POWER CORRUPTS. Be it Capitalism, communism or whatever.

[SPman]

So why bother using someone else’s pink crayons to paint your personal picture? The questionnaire used to produce the data set for that survey is more emotively spun than most I've seen. It paints me quite a different colour to most other similar tools.

Try this one, so simple there’s little room for spin… http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

What colour are you now?

Well well - about the same spot on both tests! A liberal lefty, or a slightly left of Ghandi!

and I'd agree with that, but my views are not entrenched, as long as the arguements used employ facts - used in context.

Sidling up to big business multi nationalism is a one way trip - your money in their pockets!

Since the early 90's, the middle NZ'ers effective wage has plummeted - most of the damage being done under the National government, which did more to shoot this country in the foot, than most governments other than Roger fucking Douglas and his minions! In the US, real incomes have dropped for the lower and middle income sectors as well, as have Australians - all despite a record income economy. Under neocon "free trade" policies, the only incomes rocketing, are those in the top 5% income bracket. "Trickle down effect" is a sick joke, that doesn't work in practice, and most Western countries manufacturing, and now (in WA, anyway) food industries, have been decimated, as factories buy into near "slave labour" economies in developing countries, producing cheap crap they can sell to the masses and it's just as well it's cheap, because that's all they can afford anyway!.

[Ocean1]

libertarian?

when did i ever blame liberatarians for such a thing?

look at the charts, the ACT party is neutral on that index and the violence comes from fascism be it left or right wing

You look at the fucking charts. No doubt those who consider themselves communists have no problem being also labelled collectivists. I very much doubt whether you'll find too many right wing liberals happy to be sub-categorised as libertarians, or libertarians pleased to be called anarchists. The overall flavour of the site is east European, left, intellectually sparse and graphically inept.

As for state sanctioned violence? it's historically available from every corner of the political spectrum EXCEPT that represented in the lower extremities of your chart.

[terbang]

9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden--such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled."

What you havent been visited by Jehovas witness..? Without a detailed explanation right now, though I will endeavor to ask on my next rotation (Saudi Arabia). I believe that it refers more to the preservation of the religion rather than expansion as you initially assert. From the crusades to recent there have been more attacks on Islam by extremist Christianity than the other way. So what is the basis for your expansionism theory.

[idleidolidyll]

You look at the fucking charts. No doubt those who consider themselves communists have no problem being also labelled collectivists. I very much doubt whether you'll find too many right wing liberals happy to be sub-categorised as libertarians, or libertarians pleased to be called anarchists. The overall flavour of the site is east European, left, intellectually sparse and graphically inept.

As for state sanctioned violence? it's historically available from every corner of the political spectrum EXCEPT that represented in the lower extremities of your chart.

as i said, some people are pissed that they don't score where they think they should in comparison to the policies of the political parties themselves.

BTW: communism IS collectivism pretty much by definition. Your hard cheese argument is a rather large yawn. As for libertarians being fascists, that's YOUR call not the charts or mine. The name 'libertarian' is a misnomer IMO; rather than allowing personal liberties, libertarians generally want it their way or no way. Most a re moderates and fall neutral on that index but taken to extreme and abused, it does became fascism as do any of the economic indicators when authoritarianism takes control.

Now try to get this through to your brain: it's not MY chart. Read the website, it's a chart based on research and science. Conservatives and right wingers today eschew science I know but there it is in plain sight and not just the one dimensional left/right propaganda usually offered by extreme right wing fascists like Bush.

As for extreme right wingers being sub categorised as libertarians. It makes no difference at all what they LIKE. This is a comparison of policy against beliefs and if that's where they fall, that's where they fall. They lie with milton Freidman, a paragon of right wing economic policy and that's perfect. When they become authoritarian AND subscribe to Freidmans crap, they move toward fascism as per Bush (extreme right wing fascist).

I find it hilarious that you vilify this as Euro Left just because you seem to be unable to grasp the science. That's a typical right wing reaction; when something doesn't go your way; try to vilify it and call it leftie. I scoff at that bullshit.