Understanding cornering on a bike.

[The Stranger:Me]

Most interesting...very good post, bling sent.

Not sure about that delayed apex though...

And one thing while I'm on the subject: I find that my right hand cornering is always way tighter than my left and I constantly have to adjust while cornering.

Can anyone suggest why that might be? It's a real pain...

Both issues are covered at RRRS.

[The Stranger:Me]

the thing with the late apex approach is you have to be really good on the brakes because you are trail braking to the apex (easy to tuck the front) and you have to really bang the thing into the turn, so your counter steer and throttle on has to be really good. You need very good skills is my point. When it works its fantastic, plus you will get a knee down. Just dont follow it with the rest of your body and your bike.

Say what?
You can if you desire use a late apex at a snails pace and there is no need to be a demon braker, trail brake, bang the thing in, have exceptional throttle control or get a knee down.

[fergie]

good info, thanks

[007XX]

You might like to search for late apexing.

It is MUCH safer in the real world, and in the hands of a track expert in many cases faster (harder braking - then harder on the power). Some track records are held by "late apex" style riders.

Many times on the wiggly roads I find a car parked / someone over my centreline or something where they shouldn't around a corner that raceline riding would have plowed me into, but late apexing let me see in time.

Will do thanks. And yes, it is a good point: my habit of being close to the center line may be good in a racing environment, but on the road, it could become a problem, and I'm aware of that, so I'd like to fix it.

Most people have a variance in how they corner V. It's mainly in the mind.

I suggest you get your hands on Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist or Twist of the Wrist II. He discusses this much better than I ever could.

Cheers, will do. I had heard of htis book, but wasn't sure if it was worth reading. I'll get it now based on your expert recommendation.

I wonder if it's learned behaviour from your distant dirty past dear. There's a bit of difference in how most people turn each way on a dirt bike, not just because people are R or L handed but because you often use the back brake late going in. Your whole body position is different in a right hander because your leg stays put longer to brake.



Do you find such a tactic ideally uses similar lines both ways? Or does the risk of roadside rubble deeper into a left hander change it?

My dirty whaaaaat?!? *have you been talking to my mother?

More seriously...that is a very good point, thanks. I never thought of it that way. I do use the back brake late going in, and never really thought too much about how it affects my body position. I am doing it less lately
though, as I am using the Vtwin engine braking a lot more.

Both issues are covered at RRRS.

Thanks.

[Disco Dan]

Unless your name is George Tranos, you might like to link to the source:
http://www.womenridersnow.com/Public...?ArticleID=537

Nice find though - very clear.

Very good point, for a minute I thought he had just sat and typed it all !

"Women riding now" Interesting site to be reading dude!

[Badjelly]

counter steering is the external unbalanced force that causes the bike to lean over ... the steering head is what causes the bike to go thru an arc, and counter steering to stand the bike back up again/

you should only be counter steering in a curve if you need to adjust your lean angle

This is basically correct, I think, but it does depend on the bike and its setup (particularly tyre profile and pressure) and how much power you apply. Some bikes, once turned in, will track neutrally without further input, some have to be "held down", some have to be "held up". To illustrate, try letting half the air out of your tyres, ride into a corner and then, once you're in the corner, take your hands off the bars.

As somebody else said, countersteering isn't that big a deal, it's something many (most) people do without thinking or knowing. However I think that analysing what you're doing and trying different approaches will make you a better rider.

[MSTRS:Me]

Will do thanks. And yes, it is a good point: my habit of being close to the center line may be good in a racing environment, but on the road, it could become a problem, and I'm aware of that, so I'd like to fix it.

You talking about right-handers here? Wheels on your side of the line, but head in the airspace of the opposing lane? Common error and one which I had pointed out to me a while back. Have been working on the late apex approach for the last 6 months or so, and I'm getting better (read, automatic) at it. Safer. And faster. You also avoid the 'slingshot' effect of being thrown towards the outside of the lane after the apex point.
Also, regards brakes...even on your little 250, a combination of throttle and gear selection will be much more useful than your brakes in everyday riding (yes, even commuting I dare say). Have a natter/ride with The Stranger and /or do the RRRS course.

[MyGSXF:Me]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?

The BEST thing you could do, would be to contact Andrew & Lynne at Roadsafe..

http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

They run beginner rider courses, & have bikes you can use to learn to ride on & then get your licence on with them. Below is a link to a thread I put up last year, after doing one of their advanced rider courses.. you would cover some of the same topics if you went through a beginner course too!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...98&postcount=1

Anyone can spend thousands on flash 'bling' for their bike & fancy clothing.. to make it go faster or to look hotter.. but the most beneficial money spent on motorcycling.. is to upskill the RIDER!!!

I cannot recommend Roadsafe highly enough to ANYone!!! JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jen

[007XX]

You talking about right-handers here? Wheels on your side of the line, but head in the airspace of the opposing lane? Common error and one which I had pointed out to me a while back. Have been working on the late apex approach for the last 6 months or so, and I'm getting better (read, automatic) at it. Safer. And faster. You also avoid the 'slingshot' effect of being thrown towards the outside of the lane after the apex point.
Also, regards brakes...even on your little 250, a combination of throttle and gear selection will be much more useful than your brakes in everyday riding (yes, even commuting I dare say).

Definitely talking about right handers...

I've been working on lining myself up to be able to see the end of the corner and then already be on the "outside" of the next corner, and it is working well for me in the left handers, but I always seem to over do it in the right handers...

The RRRS course sounds like a brilliant idea... in the meantime, I'll read up some more about it and practice, practice, practice...

[2fst4u]

The BEST thing you could do, would be to contact Andrew & Lynne at Roadsafe..

http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

They run beginner rider courses, & have bikes you can use to learn to ride on & then get your licence on with them. Below is a link to a thread I put up last year, after doing one of their advanced rider courses.. you would cover some of the same topics if you went through a beginner course too!!

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...98&postcount=1

Anyone can spend thousands on flash 'bling' for their bike & fancy clothing.. to make it go faster or to look hotter.. but the most beneficial money spent on motorcycling.. is to upskill the RIDER!!!

I cannot recommend Roadsafe highly enough to ANYone!!! JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jen

sounds good. i'll go check it out once exams are over. parents dont want to hear another word about motorcycles till i pass them but definatly sounds like a plan

[discotex]

the thing with the late apex approach is you have to be really good on the brakes because you are trail braking to the apex (easy to tuck the front) and you have to really bang the thing into the turn, so your counter steer and throttle on has to be really good. You need very good skills is my point. When it works its fantastic, plus you will get a knee down. Just dont follow it with the rest of your body and your bike.

Maybe on the track when going for short lap times but that's not the case on the road. You don't have to trail brake nor do you need to get a knee down to apex late.

You're probably right that it requires more skill and confidence but that's why it's so great. By slowly moving your turn in point later and later you build up the confidence in your bike and your steering ability. How far you have to lean is totally determined by entry speed so starting slower is always an option.

The biggest benefit I see is it makes decreasing radius corners much easier to deal with. No longer do they put the shits up me. Much better cornering visibility too which helps you keep the speed up.

Keith Code covers cornering pretty well and the book is cheap as at $31 from fishpond.co.nz. It improved my road riding no end.

http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Spor...t_info/1327959

[ManDownUnder]

i still dont quite get this whole counter steering thing. i understand that to lean the bike you push left, go left etc. But when you're actually in the turn, do you push right to go left? surley you dont counter steer the whole turn. and then when you exit, what do you do?

Yes - try it.

riding along in 2nd, bike into neutral, REMOVE your righ hand from the bars and simply... gently press the left hand bar. The bike will start to lean to the left, pressing harder will deepen the turn, reducing pressure will straighten it. If you want to straighten faster then pulling on the right handle bar (with your right hand being re-engaged) will do it more quickly,

[Ocean1]

Yes - try it.

riding along in 2nd, bike into neutral, REMOVE your righ hand from the bars and simply... gently press the left hand bar. The bike will start to lean to the left, pressing harder will deepen the turn, reducing pressure will straighten it. If you want to straighten faster then pulling on the right handle bar (with your right hand being re-engaged) will do it more quickly,

??????????

[2wheeldrifter]

Very good point, for a minute I thought he had just sat and typed it all !

"Women riding now" Interesting site to be reading dude!

Typed it.....get real dude.... maybe these woman riders do know a thing or two.... I was lookin for tit's on bikes pic's!..

but hey people a learning something at the end of the day aye, so can't be all bad.

[mowgli]

Another book worth reading is "The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling" published by TSO, London. It's course reading for the London Metro police riders. In addition to actual riding it includes sections on profiling other motorists and yourself to identify the things you might be doing inadvertently that increase your chances of being in a smash.

While this is essentially teaching cops how to ride safely at speeds above the legal limit the principles apply just the same at sensible speeds. A great read if you can get you hands on a copy.