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Thread: Who's the tosser running from the cops on TV3? (10 November)

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanx View Post
    As much as I hate to admit it, Sollyboy and DaveReid do have a valid point...

    The fundamental principle underlying New Zealand's justice system is that you are innocent until proven guilty. With the introduction of mandatory roadside suspensions for trivial offences (for instance, an 'unnecessary display of acceleration'), it's hardly surprising some people run when the blues'n'twos go off behind them.

    Just consider, for example, what impact a mandatory 28-day impounding of a car can have on a family. If the main bread-winner loses both his licence and his vehicle, then that could affect his employment. Even if his job didn't directly rely on his ability to drive, not being able to get to and from work due to lack of transport could cause grave difficulty.

    Now, should this suspension be imposed by a judge then the guilty party really doesn't have a leg to stand on. However, when the suspension and impounding can be imposed merely because a Police Officer believes on reasonable grounds that a person ... operated the vehicle in a race, or in an unnecessary exhibition of speed or acceleration, on a road (legislation here, scroll down to section 96, paragraph 1A) there's far more grounds for the 'presumed guilty' party to feel aggrieved. There are a number worrying terms in this statement: believes, reasonable grounds, and unnecessary; they're all entirely subjective, and the imposition of a roadside suspension of licence and impounding of the car removes the presumption of innocence to which every New Zealander is guaranteed by the Bill of Rights (section 25, paragraph c).

    Now, of course the majority of police pursuits do not result from the pursue-ee having rationally considered all the options, the relevant legislation and so on. No, as one of the resident officers pointed out, the vehicle in which the runner is attempted is often stolen. Or full of drugs. However, in cases where someone thinks they're going to lose their licence and vehicle simply because a cop merely has 'reasonable grounds to believe' they're done something, it's not surprising that some people do run. And no, this is not the Police's fault; it's the government's. They rammed through the Land Transport Amendment Act 2003 (the so-called Boy Racer Act) under urgency to tackle a problem that didn't actually require any additional legislation. And it isn't just boy racer offences that carry a 28 day get-fit-by-walking sentence. Anything more than 40kph over the limit and you're walking instantly. Sure, you can appeal the mandatory suspension, but even if your appeal's succesfull, you still have to wait up to give working days for your appeal to be considered. And then wait a further couple of days for your licence to be posted back out to you.

    I'm not trying to say that running's justified; I'm saying that considering the lack of evidence needed to 'convict' someone and impound their vehicle, you can see why some people choose to take a chance and run. Sometimes they get away; usually they don't. Sometimes an accident will happen; usually they don't. But the fact remains that Police chases are dangerous and a significant number of injuries occur during them. I'm not saying this is the Police's fault, but the risk to the public should be considered before embarking on a chase, and as recent events have shown, the Police don't always consider them properly. It's also clear that certain people in authority are concerned about this too; the PCA is conducting a review of the rules governing Police chases, as a result of concerns about the number of deaths and serious injuries that occur during such chases.
    I 100% agree, I said the same thing a few pages back about the punishment doesn't fit the crime & is the cause of all these runners, but that isn't what Sollyboy is crapping on about he is trying to say its the cops fault if someone is hurt & they shouldn't chase at all. Your right the law is the ass here not the long arm of it. As soon as they remove these over the top boy racer laws ie take away your car then the runners will reduce in numbers greatly. In Australia just recently they bought in a law where they can crush your car & you they make you watch them do it. I mean that really is pathetic if you ask me, extremely draconian & certainly going to add weight to anyone thinking about doing a runner.
    To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and to endure the betrayal of false friends. To appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boob Johnson View Post
    . In Australia just recently they bought in a law where they can crush your car & you they make you watch them do it. I mean that really is pathetic if you ask me, extremely draconian & certainly going to add weight to anyone thinking about doing a runner.
    Sooo, to reverse your theory:

    Don't inflict any penalty and they'll never do runners eh?

    Novel idea!
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  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Sooo, to reverse your theory:

    Don't inflict any penalty and they'll never do runners eh?

    Novel idea!
    Na not a reversal just a punishment that fits the crime is all, it is completely out of whack with similar crime
    To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and to endure the betrayal of false friends. To appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boob Johnson View Post
    Na not a reversal just a punishment that fits the crime is all, it is completely out of whack with similar crime
    So what would you suggest? Im not saying I disagree just that fining someone does not work either. We all know how easy it is to get away with thousands of dollars worth of fines...
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  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Dan View Post
    So what would you suggest? Im not saying I disagree just that fining someone does not work either. We all know how easy it is to get away with thousands of dollars worth of fines...
    Doesn't work? What would you base that assumption on?
    To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and to endure the betrayal of false friends. To appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded

  6. #276
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    How about, stopping and taking the consequences of your choices?

    Humans come in 3 shapes....

    1) a percentage of the population out there who under no circumstances would ever be runners.

    2) a small percentage who are habitual runners

    3) the group in the middle, who will go either way depending on the situation. It would be a situational value call, and a key driver is what is deemed acceptable or the "norm".

    Note this appies to every situation you can think of. You can replace runners with speeding, red light running, theft, taking pens home from work, etc etc.

    So lets ignore group one.

    Will penalties influence the decision of group 2s to do runners, no. So Group 2 need consequences that remove them from the future situation. Harsh repeat offender penalties would be just the ticket.

    And for group 3, I think the penalty should be raised considerably for runner offences, to the extent that it just isn't worth the risk, and "stopping and taking the consequences of your choices" is the logical, least pain, choice

    The net effect of backing off runner persuits is actually encouraging Group 2s to do runners because of the belief that they will get away. The only logical oucome is more runners.

    More runners = more carnage = bad.
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  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boob Johnson View Post
    Doesn't work? What would you base that assumption on?
    Ummm Have you been overseas? We just had an extensive (and probably completely ineffective) ad campaign on radio and TV to get people to pay their fines.

    There are many millions of dollars worth of fines unpaid and the miscreants have no intention of paying them. I was talking to someone recently who owes $12,000. She has no way of paying that and will probably wind up doing PD time calculated at an astronomical hourly rate.

    The fines only work for the idiots like you and me who pay them, and those who have something to lose? Those who have bugger-all, and care less, just do not pay and they basically get away with it...
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  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch008 View Post
    There are many millions of dollars worth of fines unpaid
    And how many millions HAVE been paid





    Quote Originally Posted by pritch008 View Post
    The fines only work for the idiots like you and me who pay them, and those who have something to lose? Those who have bugger-all, and care less, just do not pay and they basically get away with it...
    So we should change the law to suit the minority?
    To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and to endure the betrayal of false friends. To appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boob Johnson View Post
    So we should change the law to suit the minority?
    Yeah but its the habitual minority that owes the millions...go figure!

  10. #280
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    A conversation among a group of middle aged - old farts recently (I was the only biker) revealed that running is becoming more common in the 50 - 70 age group. The sole reason given is that they have too many demerit points, and a single speeding ticket will mean loss of licence. Therefore why not run? If they get away the licence is safe, if they don't then the penalty is the same. ie loss of licence. Fines didn't even come into it.

    So maybe our demerit system is too harsh on simple offences, and not harsh enough on serious ones.
    Time to ride

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by judecatmad View Post
    Good point - the 'innocent until proven guilty' part.

    So....instead of taking away the licence and impounding the vehicle, let's do what we do with someone who has, say, just shot and killed someone....that is, take them into custody and hold them until such time as they are allowed out on bail or they go to trial for said offence.

    So instead of impounding said vehicle, we 'impound' the driver.

    I'd say the consequences of that are actually worse than taking the car away, but if we are to start treating all crimes equally.....

    Take away someone's licence to drive and their car, and they still have public transport to get them to their job (in most cases - and if they're rural and don't, or their job requires them to drive, then they were even more of a cock to run in the first place). Said lunatic driver would at least still be there for the care of their family as opposed to banged up in the nick.

    The fact that a family's survival may be totally dependent on mum or dad's driving licence should not mean that joe public has to be held to ransom and allow lunatic driving to go unpunished. In fact, if lunatic driver's livelihood (and the feeding of their family) hinges on their driving licence, they're even more of a dickhead than the person who only puts strangers' lives at risk.
    Murder is not even close to doing 141kmh so why would both need to have you being arrested , you seem to lack balance .
    btw chris kahui seems to have a bit of freedom considering the crime , lucky for him he wasnt speeding

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by RT527 View Post
    Yeah but its the habitual minority that owes the millions...go figure!
    And how much actually gets paid each year? I think you will find it far out ways the amount out standing, that is my point. You can't legislate for everyone, impossible. So to impose draconian laws in comparison with other much greater offences seems, well.........draconian.



    Kiddy fiddlers don't get their tackle chopped off so why should someone have their vehicle confiscated or worse crushed.





    If I passed a patrol car doing an excessive speed (lets say 180 odd for arguments sake) & were met with the disco lights as long as the conditions suited I would consider maintaining my speed until a turn off presented itself.
    To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and to endure the betrayal of false friends. To appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know that even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by judecatmad View Post
    The fact that a family's survival may be totally dependent on mum or dad's driving licence should not mean that joe public has to be held to ransom and allow lunatic driving to go unpunished. In fact, if lunatic driver's livelihood (and the feeding of their family) hinges on their driving licence, they're even more of a dickhead than the person who only puts strangers' lives at risk.
    and agin it comes back to the simple truth:

    dont do the crime and you wont do the time

    how can this be so hard for some to understand? sure taking your ride is bit inconvienient - so don't do burnouts and keep you speeds reasonable!

    and as paturoa said earlier - if they made the punishment for running more severe than that of stopping, alot of people would try stopping! over in the states you get jail time for running - and not just 30 days; think over 12 months

    similarly car theft in the states carries something like 7 years - compare that to our 3 months and it's no wonder our vehicle theft is so high!

  14. #284
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    To the moderators that I chose to vent my spleen at the other night I unreservedly apologise.

    To those on here that think that the loss of innocent lives on our roads should just be seen as 'collateral damage', I would question your sense of ethics.

  15. #285
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    we all have rights in NZ ....I have the right to not run from the cops, i have the right to go home at the end of the day and tell my wife I love her...I have the right to not have my stuff stolen....you all talk about the rights of the crim ...well boo fucking hoo I think my rights are more important than your oh shit I'm going to get caught i better run from the fuzz and risk killing someone cause i don't want to conform , then you'll blame the cops for my child being killed that you ran down at 200 clicks all the while using mine and everyone else's taxes to pay for your care after you binned it so you can get your licence back after 3 months of a 12 month sentence and do it all over again.

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