Seat bag problem.... and Motormail - Comments welcome

**HanaBelle** · 29th October 2004, 21:45

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

Then it is a seriously stuffed up world and you are as fuckin mad as he is......

Christ on a freakin' crutch, use some common sense and stop blaming other people for your screw ups! We all do it every day! (screw ups) Paint is PAINT not armour plate! Anything that rubs on paint will wear it including riding trou or polish!

I'm NOT being hard, I'm being realistic.

I think youre being hard, and that there is no cause whatsoever to rant at him. It DOES piss you off when little stuff like that happens. I cursed every day the melted paint on my now-ex EL250 that I quite possibly caused by strapping a plastic water bottle to it and riding five hours in the sun. If I could have blamed someone I woulda. Human nature etc and I do not see any reason to yelp.

Growl at yourself in the mirror for whatever small screw up you are projecting everywhere by all means. But excuse me if I understand what those little nasties can do to your sense of happiness about beloved transport.

HB

**FROSTY:Me** · 29th October 2004, 22:14

Originally Posted by Zapf

Well here is my problem...

when to motormail and bought a seat bag for the waikato rally, and during the trip the 4 tie down straps and another part of the bag that hangs over the rear rubbed right thru the rear paint work.

So now I am faced with the cost of fixing up the paint or take a $200 hit when I trade my VTR250 in. Now being a self confessed newbie have only bought my 250 and got my license in Aug, 04. I really didn't know the seat bag is going to be rubbing the paint off. Motormail is refusing to refund the bag as they say it is not faulty, and says that I should have known that the seatbag was going to rub the paint off. And they had no responsibility of the bag doing that and telling that it'll do so.

So what is a fair thing to do?

Should motormail accept the seat bag to be returned, refund me the purchase price and fix up my paint work? Or are they really liable for nothing? Or somewhere in between?

Your comments are welcomed

Im sorry the guys at Motomail diddn't explain ya need to protect ya paintwork but dude its part of being a biker--bits get busted

**James Deuce** · 29th October 2004, 22:27

I really don't understand how anyone can support someone threathening legal action against a distributor or manufacturer because they had a learning experience.

Paul's rant is justified. This very attitude has corrupted the values of the civil law system in the US. It's about chasing ambulances and laying lawsuits against those that expose your own stupidity occasionally.

My RG250 was a pearl of a bike. But I damaged the paintwork through saddle bag straps and the way I'd attached them to the bike. My first reaction wasn't; quick go and sue Hallmark.

The rear shock was air preload. You had to put air in the shock to adjust the pre load. I didn't read the manual. Consequently the air that was in there slowly bled out over the course of a year, and I started grounding fairing panel and mufflers when I was giving it some welly. One of the WMCC guys (Bob Toomey) asked my how much PSI I was running in the rear shock when he saw the damage. I said, "Come again?". He said, "You f__king idiot", put 10 PSI in it for me and sorted out $400 worth of paint and panel work for me. He was right, and I learned a valuable lesson.

Not long after I got my brand new GSXR 250, I went round to a Mooch's sister's place for tea with Mooch, and I parked on the lawn. The ground was soft and I came outside to find my precious new bike on it's side and one of the mirrors had snapped off. That wasn't Suzuki's mistake, it was mine. I expected 170kg of bike to be supported on a metal tang the size of 2 fifty cent pieces on soft earth. My fault.

Learn as much as you can about your bike, and also ask questions BEFORE you do something you've never done before.

Don't go laying the blame for your own mistakes at other people's feet. Look at Two Smoker. He's not suing his mate or Suzuki for the engine seizure. He's analysed the accident and learned from it, and intends to apply his lesson in future should the need arise.

If you refuse to learn from mistakes you make regarding motorcycling, then one of these days you will repeat a mistake that you may have performed without any serious consequences, but this time might be fatal. Motorcycling is as much about attitude as it is about skill. If you blame everyone else for your mishaps, then you aren't learning a thing.

**Paul in NZ** · 29th October 2004, 22:34

Originally Posted by HanaBelle

I think youre being hard, and that there is no cause whatsoever to rant at him. It DOES piss you off when little stuff like that happens. I cursed every day the melted paint on my now-ex EL250 that I quite possibly caused by strapping a plastic water bottle to it and riding five hours in the sun. If I could have blamed someone I woulda. Human nature etc and I do not see any reason to yelp.

Growl at yourself in the mirror for whatever small screw up you are projecting everywhere by all means. But excuse me if I understand what those little nasties can do to your sense of happiness about beloved transport.

HB

HanaBelle

I'm not ranting or being hard.. Trust me, you will know it when I am!!

I'm trying to make a strong point here. As a consumer you have rights! As a human being you have responsibilities. How many decent people go into business (like Motomail) only to get pestered out of existence by idiotic claims like this! Before you know it, YOU won't be able to buy a bloody seat bag because the manufacturers cannot make an idiot proof product... How is that fair to me?

I'm deadly, deadly serious here!!

There are direct parallels with (say) motosport events. "Oh Oh Oh I got hurt because you didn't warn me going too fast could hurt my bike so I'm going to sue you".

Go back and look at the pictures of the damage... If you cannot figure it out what happened from there.. Sheesh!

Phew! - deep breath!

OK. If the product failed, ie a covering fell off, a bungee snapped etc then fair enough! But this is nuts!

If you use stuff improperly and it gets damaged, it's YOUR problem! If you don't bother investigating HOW to use stuff before you do so, its YOUR problem!

One post to this site would have produced a stream of advice!

An "opps I screwed up" would have me springing into help mode but suggesting taking a decent retailer like Motomail to the small claims court is utterly bloody disgraceful!!

IF YOU CANNOT PROPERLY USE or FIT AN ACCESSORY AND DON"T ASK TO BE SHOWN, IMHO YOU HAVE YOURSELF TO BLAME!!! Don't expect people to second guess your abilities!

Paul N

**HanaBelle** · 29th October 2004, 22:55

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

HanaBelle

I'm not ranting or being hard.. Trust me, you will know it when I am!!

I'm trying to make a strong point here. As a consumer you have rights! As a human being you have responsibilities. Don't expect people to second guess your abilities!

Paul N

I understand your point but I also understand why Zapf reacted the way he did, and dont actually think its unreasonable to expect your bike NOT to be damaged by a bike purchase (although you make a good point in saying the bag is a generic and suggesting looking for those possibilities next time).

As a newbie it cost my first bike a small shitload of bits of freaking paint for me to learn/discover how fragile bike paint IS - key scratches, the melted thingy, and something else I forget now but know pissed me off at the time...no doubt 15 people will correct me but I actually suspect bike paint is far less robust than the average car surface, if my experience with it virtually flinging itself off at the least touch of something else metal is worth going on.

So - I get how the guy feels. Wouldnt have approached Motomail in the same fashion, myself, but hey, I like good relationships with bike shops, etc.

And, Jim, Im supporting understanding someone without supporting him suing...k

Anyway, whatever, I think its good to share and its good because I, for example, will now NOT attach a seat bag to the Vulcan without taping it first...and thanks to Zapf, I DIDNT have to suffer paint crap again to learn that tip. Ay. :-)

HanaBelle

**Zapf** · 29th October 2004, 23:14

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

Then it is a seriously stuffed up world and you are as fuckin mad as he is......

The seat bag is a seat bag, it fits a gazillion bikes and they expect you to take some resonable care. Christ, were there any instructions with it or did you have to figure that out too? The stupid bikemakers build bikes with dumb protrusions on the side that any luggage will rub on. SUE THEM!!...

Christ on a freakin' crutch, use some common sense and stop blaming other people for your screw ups! We all do it every day! (screw ups) Paint is PAINT not armour plate! Anything that rubs on paint will wear it including riding trou or polish!

When I moved house to the North island the Trophy went on a trailer and I tied it on and put a cover on it. It rained, the cover got wet and messed up the chrome on a muffler. Whose fault was that?

A couple of hundred dollars you ain't even lost yet and you are taking some poor retailer to the small claims court because yoiu made a mistake and now want someone else to pay? Oh come ON! If they made a misleading claim thats something else but it's that sort of pathetic whinging that gets us all in trouble and costs us all money to cover your stupidity. Oh Oh I got hurt on your nasty bike, I want compo and guess who pays? All of us!!

I'm NOT being hard, I'm being realistic.

Everone else figures this shit out for themselves, why do you deserve special treatment or perhaps the shop ought to have a special procedure before they can let you have your luggage? Maybe they should run a course on it??

"Before I can sell you this seat bag sir/madam we have to ask you a few questions, get you to sign this and attend a 3 week residential training program"

Get over it, it's PAINT! Not a leg or an engine.... By the looks of it, it was a bungee hook that did the damage and if you could not predict that you ought to seriously consider you future on 2 wheels.... Any wheels in fact!

Oh I give up....

Sue away mate, drive those bastards at Motomail out of business, then turn ya guns on the bag makers, they did it on purpose I'll bet, those KB pricks at the rally are partially to blame as well, they should have warned you! Sue them all!

Ermm I think I need to put this in proper light here and hopefully don't put more oil on fire. As I don't want to be a trouble maker on this forum.

I know everything has a learning curve, and yes people including me fucks up. And I know when I have. I have own some highly tuned cars in the pass with all sort of electronic gizzmo that I can reprogram my car with. And I have owned it for 6 proud years and it is with running well with me. So my point is I respect things well enough to not fu*k with them.

I was dealing with Chris at motormail, and he well knows that i have been there in the last few months inquiring about gear and stuff and I had explained to him I am new to it all. So I went there before the ride and ask for a set of panniers, we tried to fit them on the bike but none will fit, but he did mentioned that the back of the panniers will rub the paint. So that is fine, if I did buy a set of panniers and it rubbed all my paint away I can't complain as "I have been warned"

and YES I am about to loose that few hundred dollars as I am trading up to a SV650S. And I have been told that I havee lost $200 on my trade in value due to that paint damage.

no I don't require special treatment BUT, if they sold me a product that was suppose to fit my bike and my requirement but instead damages something else in the process then they should have warned me about it. I mean, I even had my bike there to see and do a test fit on. And they even showed me how it should fit (but it still stuffed the paint)

and no I am not trying to sue them out of business, I am in retail / consultant business myself and run my own business. But I know if you sold someone something and it stuffs up their business, I am liable for damages.

If some one sold you a set of brake pads that was meant for your bike. It does the job but warped your discs after a hundred k's would you not complain?

And refering to an earlier discussion on here before about port holes, if you hit a port hole and it bents your rim did you know that the council is liable for damages? (you have to prove it of course) Because they provide a service / goods (roads) and it should be to a reasonable standard and not damage your car / bike. Since you paided your rates.

anyway that is my 2nd 2 cent.

Oh and I didn't want to do anything nasty like taking someone to small claims, I went in there today to tell them that I am not happy with what happened and gave them a chance to explain it to me and so that we can resolve it nicely.

I mean I like having good relationships with bike shops or any shops for that matter, but if they won't stand behind what they sell and it has caused damage then I take up the issue for the sake of it.

**James Deuce** · 29th October 2004, 23:45

Originally Posted by Zapf

no I don't require special treatment BUT, if they sold me a product that was suppose to fit my bike and my requirement but instead damages something else in the process then they should have warned me about it. I mean, I even had my bike there to see and do a test fit on.

and no I am not trying to sue them out of business, I am in retail / consultant business myself and run my own business. But I know if you sold someone something and it stuffs up their business, I am liable for damages.

Did you ask whether you need to do anything to prevent damage to your bike? No? Then how do the staff know to give you any clues? I have no idea what line of retail trade you work in, but presuming you sold a male customer underpants two sizes too small, and he came back and complained he was sterile due to reduced testicular circulation, you aren't liable. ACC covers it. Just because Motomail are vulnerable to legal action in this instance doesn;t make it right to pursue it. Paul has laid the reasons out perfectly.

Originally Posted by Zapf

If some one sold you a set of brake pads that was meant for your bike. It does the job but warped your discs after a hundred k's would you not complain?

You would need to prove beyond doubt that the pads did it. I don't think you could.

Originally Posted by Zapf

And refering to an earlier discussion on here before about port holes, if you hit a port hole and it bents your rim did you know that the council is liable for damages? (you have to prove it of course) Because they provide a service / goods (roads) and it should be to a reasonable standard and not damage your car / bike. Since you paided your rates.

No they're not. Do you pay rates to every council whose district you ride through? I believe not. You have insurance to cover this type of damage. One hopes.

Shit Happens. Learn from it. Move on. It is unreasonable to expect everybody who sells you anything to warn you of every eventuality of use, and all potential costs or damage that may be caused by use. Buying a rugby ball can lead to a broken neck.

**James Deuce** · 29th October 2004, 23:50

Originally Posted by HanaBelle

So - I get how the guy feels. Wouldnt have approached Motomail in the same fashion, myself, but hey, I like good relationships with bike shops, etc.

And, Jim, Im supporting understanding someone without supporting him suing...k

HanaBelle

No you're supporting the mentality that everything bad that happens to an individual is not their responsibility.

As you say, you catch more flies with honey, and Zapf has gone in 10 foot tall and invincible and blamed someone who probably assumed that he had enough nouse to to know what to do to avoid damage to paintwork.

I'd have a lot more empathy for Zapf if he'd admitted a screw up instead of launching into a blame storm, and I have no doubt that Motomail would have helped him get the paint damage sorted if he hadn't taken the route with them that he has.

**Lou Girardin** · 30th October 2004, 06:18

No offense zapf, but if you'd come to your friendly, local AMPS store I would have advised you how to avoid that.
Motomail aren't liable, but it shows that there are different degrees of service out there.
PS. feeling well savaged yet?

**Frankie** · 30th October 2004, 06:34

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

I'm NOT being hard, I'm being realistic.

No... your an arsehole thats what you are...

Come on ohnestly he admitted he was a newbie to bikes... just like me... the least they can do if give him a refund... and they should by law because "he goods not fitting the purpose for which they were bought"

Thats true... I work in a retail store and we get returns like although they arent often but we still get a few a month...

Cmon just take it easy on the guy instead of being all macho im the big man here im bigger and better than you because i know more about bikes blah blah blah mwaaaah mwaaaah i want attention

...

**James Deuce** · 30th October 2004, 06:43

Originally Posted by Frankie

No... your an arsehole thats what you are...

Come on ohnestly he admitted he was a newbie to bikes... just like me... the least they can do if give him a refund... and they should by law because "he goods not fitting the purpose for which they were bought"

Thats true... I work in a retail store and we get returns like although they arent often but we still get a few a month...

Cmon just take it easy on the guy instead of being all macho im the big man here im bigger and better than you because i know more about bikes blah blah blah mwaaaah mwaaaah i want attention

...

You can't help people if they don't ask.

The bag was used for the correct purpose.

It was fitted incorrectly, or without due care and damaged his bike. His problem, NOT Motomail's.

Paul is the least "arseholeish" person I've met. He's honest, and he (like me) is straight up to a fault about his own failings as well as pointing out when other people are being a mumpty.

Caveat Emptor for goodness sake, or does that mean NOTHING to the current crop of consumer?

**Frankie** · 30th October 2004, 06:52

at the very least you dont have to be so harsh on the fella ae

**Ms Piggy** · 30th October 2004, 07:19

Whoooooaaaaa! All getting a little bit outta hand here people. Lets bring some peace, love and understanding (and mung beans) back here and all take a deep breath.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh - thats better now isn't it?

Fankie - Paul is definitely no arsehole. I think I can safely say he is a valued member of KB's, with an excellent bike knowledge.

I do, however, sysmpathise with Zapf. As I mentioned earlier I'm a newbie and I would never to think to ask about things like the bag rubbibng bits off my paint work off, although it don't matter on the Bitchin' Mobile.

Zapf the bag did actually serve it's purpose though i.e. to carry your belongings. Yeah it does suck that your paint work got damaged and I think it's unfair that it wasn't pointed out to you that this would happen but, at the end of the day I wouldn't recomend bad mouthing about a business on a public forum and maybe that's why you got the harsh responses you did.