Campervan accident - I'm puzzled how...

[sunhuntin]

from stuff:

The front two riders had no time to avoid the van. One rider was killed at the scene and his pillion was thrown 15m over a hedge and also killed.

The second bike was carrying MacDonald, with his daughter riding pillion.

The riders of two motorcycles coming up behind swerved or struck other vehicles, and two received broken bones and cuts.

[McDuck]

Ouchies.....

[Usarka]

Not sure where you got the speed info from. Who told you that was the case in this instance? (Could have been more or could have been less so thats conjecture on your part)

Quote : "it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?"

Huh? Unfortunately and sadly it may have been for the front riders... but what about the rest?

One common sense rule of the driving is one should be able to stop in half the visible clear distance ahead. This is really applicable to following drivers/ riders. I frequently see group riders well inside the basic two second rule (staggered or otherwise).

We will never know exactly what the situation was that caused this massive tragedy but we do need to think about things in case they happen to us or our mates - and then learn from it

Do you ride on the road? you obviously havent been in the situation of having to avoid a possible head on. let alone with something as big as a campervan thats lost control.

[Duc]

From the responses I guess you are all saying that this group of bikes were riding fairly close together in a tight formation where it was un avoidable that they all got involved due to lack of space and time for the back ones to respond to any situation up front.

Thats what I think also.

Thing I learnt from this tragedy is make even more space around me than I do now. (space = time)

BTW : I hope I am never ever put in the head on situation . Getting taken out by a U-turner was enough of a warning for me.

[KATWYN]

We stopped riding in groups a long time ago because of that sorta thing.

But sometimes someone will just invite us into their accident no matter how prepared we are

[ElCoyote]

Not sure where you got the speed info from. Who told you that was the case in this instance? (Could have been more or could have been less so thats conjecture on your part)

Quote : "it was a head on for fucks sake. have you ever played ten pin bowling?"

Huh? Unfortunately and sadly it may have been for the front riders... but what about the rest?

One common sense rule of the driving is one should be able to stop in half the visible clear distance ahead. This is really applicable to following drivers/ riders. I frequently see group riders well inside the basic two second rule (staggered or otherwise).

We will never know exactly what the situation was that caused this massive tragedy but we do need to think about things in case they happen to us or our mates - and then learn from it

I agree with most of what you say but "half the clear visible distance" becomes somewhat of a moot point when it happens right in front of you. One analogy would be, you are on a narrow bridge and the oncoming cage driver has a heart attack or goes to sleep. Not being picky but we weren't there.

[sunhuntin]

I agree with most of what you say but "half the clear visible distance" becomes somewhat of a moot point when it happens right in front of you. One analogy would be, you are on a narrow bridge and the oncoming cage driver has a heart attack or goes to sleep. Not being picky but we weren't there.

another analogy would be a car reversing at speed from the driveway right in front of you, or pulling out from a giveway/supermarket etc right in front/alongside you. nearly had that several times. luckily enough room to stop, but by the time i was stopped, the positioning meant that, had the taxi not stopped, i would have been a t bone steak.

[Usarka]

From the responses I guess you are all saying that this group of bikes were riding fairly close together in a tight formation where it was un avoidable that they all got involved due to lack of space and time for the back ones to respond to any situation up front.

Thats what I think also.

Thing I learnt from this tragedy is make even more space around me than I do now. (space = time)

BTW : I hope I am never ever put in the head on situation . Getting taken out by a U-turner was enough of a warning for me.

FFS (again). go for a ride (on a closed road) at 200kph. Thats the closing speed of two vehicles at the legal speed limit. pick a marker and hit the brakes and see how long it takes you to stop. i get the feeling you will be surprised.

[Jantar]

The camper van wasn't driving on the wrong side of the road, it suddenly veered across the road, straight into the bikes. If the bikes were in staggered formation at 95kmh, then:

The first bike had no time to even react;
The second bike would have had one second, enough time to react and reach for the brakes, but almost nothing else. Impact speed would still be over 80 kmh;
The third bike would have had 2 seconds, enough time to react and start to brake. Using perfect emergency braking he would have reduced his speed to around 55 kmh;
The 4th bike would have had 3 seconds, enough time to react and to brake. Using perfect emergency braking he would have reduced his speed to around 20 kmh;

Further back bikes would have been able to stop and/or avoid an accident.

[Duc]

FFS (again). go for a ride (on a closed road) at 200kph. Thats the closing speed of two vehicles at the legal speed limit. pick a marker and hit the brakes and see how long it takes you to stop. i get the feeling you will be surprised.

Why do you keep repeating "FFS" at me? I am totally aware of closing speeds and stiopping distances ...and thats the point. How much room do we give ourselves to give ourselves the best chance of stopping or avoiding something.

I have no idea what happened in this accident (or many details to help work it out) but it just made me think how the last two machines got involved. The front two I understand and was not under discussion.

Question : Was speed a (secondary) issue and did it come out in the court case?

I think there was a multiple bike pile up involving a MC gang some time back. They are a group of riders who I often see riding close in tight following formations. Nothing would surprise me in their case.

[Usarka]

Why do you keep repeating "FFS" at me? I am totally aware of closing speeds and stiopping distances ...and thats the point. How much room do we give ourselves to give ourselves the best chance of stopping or avoiding something. .

three reasons - firstly because the answer is simple, head on collisions are very hard to avoid. secondly because a father and daughter died and their mates got injured and had to attend to the scene etc. your implying they should have been riding better and avoided it when there is no evidence to suggest that is the case. thirdly you're not listening to the answers your getting.

any good at maths?

a) what is the stopping distance when you are travelling at 200kph (the closing speed of two vehicles on the open road)?

b) what distance are you from the bike in front when you are following using the 2 second rule at 100kph?

c) if a campervan crosses the centerline immediately in front of the bike in front of you, have you got enough room to stop? (hint, is b larger than a?)

[Paul in NZ]

Now heres a funny thing....

Quite by chance and independently - on a flying visit to the south isaland I've recently met people from both sides of this incident and learnt how it went from both sides.

Many more than 4 bikes were involved and if ever the words 'accident' 'tradgedy' and 'remorse' applied to a situation then it is this one.

Sometimes - very nice people end up in the most terrible of circumstances and while its hard, this is a time of compassion, sadness and ultimately forgiveness..... So so sad....

[ducatijim]

Good on you Paul, there has been too much conjecture/too little knowledge.

Lets hope none of us have to experience EITHER side of a shocking event like this in our lifetime.

[steveb64]

Dude, you can learn how much you want. The reality is that if a car/camper van that is coming in the other direction suddenly veers toward you at speed while you happily are riding minding your own business you are history. (The driver admitted fault, she admitted that she got the wheels off the tarseal and on to the gravel on the l/h side, then she over corrected and got on to the wrong side smashing in to the bikes).

A very sad situation. For the riders, their families, but also for the driver who made a mistake that killed 4 riders. As far as I can tell she is a normal girl who phucked up badly with this tragic result.

But to try to say that the riders should have been expecting something like this and been prepared.

IMO - the really sad thing is - she had probably pulled over to the left to leave more room for the bikes coming the other way - especially as she was driving a fairly wide camper van, on a reasonably narrow stretch of road.

Now heres a funny thing....

Quite by chance and independently - on a flying visit to the south isaland I've recently met people from both sides of this incident and learnt how it went from both sides.

Many more than 4 bikes were involved and if ever the words 'accident' 'tradgedy' and 'remorse' applied to a situation then it is this one.

Sometimes - very nice people end up in the most terrible of circumstances and while its hard, this is a time of compassion, sadness and ultimately forgiveness..... So so sad....

Which makes me think my scenario above even more likely - large group/numbers of bikes oncoming - possibly passing within the group - tourist in camper moves over too far - and .....

A VERY sad situation for all involved.

[candor]

The 2 second rule doesn't apply for head on avoidance - you'd need to stay off the road altogether not to breach. Or I guess if you're worried about the guy in front being challenged with NO warning you could go to 4 seconds and annoy everyone behind! The main thing to learn here imo is the at fault party should have been more awake.

From drive and stay alive

If you are on a dry, clear road and you reach the same fixed point before you have said the 'two' then you are too close and need to drop further back, to create the essential minimum of a two-second gap. And if you prefer three seconds, rather than two, that's okay.

If you are on a wet road then you need to have at least a four-second gap.

And if it's icy or you are driving on compacted snow or somewhere you know that something slippery (such as diesel fuel) has been spilled, then it is wise to create at least a ten-second gap. Yes, it will look like a huge gap, but who cares? Your life, or even your vehicle merely being damaged, are worth more than the opinions of those who don't understand your own greater knowledge of safety