Reply from MP Harry Duynhoven

[0arbreaka]

Not long after the accident from which Dan lost his life, I wrote an email to Prime minister Helen Clark expressing my concerns about the dangers posed to road users by the wire median barriers, this email was fowarded to MP Harry Duynhoven as it fell under his portfolio, it has taken well over a month to get a reply from the mp.

Heres the reply in which I recieved today;

Dear Mr Allison

Thank you for your email of date 2007, to the Prime Minister Helen Clark in which you express concern about the dangers posed to motorcyclists and other road users by wire rope median barriers (WRMB). Your email has been referref to me for reply as the issue falls within my portfolio. I have asked my officals to comment on the issue for me and they advise as follows:

The fatal crash involving a motorcyclist who hit a wire rope barrier on Auckland's Southern Motorway in October 2007, while tragic in itself, has reignited the debate about the hazards that motorcyclists face with these barriers. However, the safety benefits that wire rope barriers provide tpo the vast majority of road users are undeniable and continue to be demonstrated.

Transit New Zealand (Transit), as the angency responsible for the installation of WRMB's, recognises that all safety barriers, not just wire rope barriers, can be a safety hazard to motorcyclists. However, at this stage, New Zealand crash statistics and international research and experience do not show that wire rope barriers present more of a danger to motorcyclists than other types of barrier. Indeed, there is good evidence to suggest that if no barrier was in place, the likely result of a motorcyclist coming off their bike would be the same if not worse - ie: the motorcyclist may a strike roadside hazard or oncoming traffic. Transit continues to monitor the way in which our wire rope barriers perform and keep watching brief on international WRMB design developments, especially with respect to theit response to impacts from motorcyclists.

In 2006 Transit commissioned Opus International Consultants to prepare a report on this issue, and continue to closely follow international research and views on the topic. All of our work in New Zealand, and the scanning for information on international developments suggests that our approach is appropriate.

Over the ten year period from 1997 to 2007 (so far) there have been nine reports of a motorcyclist killed in New Zealand following impact with a safety barrier. Two of these involved a median barrier - one W-section ("Armco") and the recent wire rope crash. Both accidents were on an Auckland Motorway and both allegedly involved speed significantly in excess of the speed limit. None of the other seven involved a wire rope barrier.

Based on these statistics, there is no indication that wire rope barriers are more dangerous to motorcyclists than other types of barriers. Furthermore, motorcycle crashes with wire rope barriers are a very small percentage of the total motorcycle crashes.

It is clear that if we are to continue to reduce the number of fatalities and serious injuries on our roads, we need to make use of new ways of reducing the numbers and effects of crashes. Transit is following current best practice by installing wire rope median barriers to achieve these outcomes and advises that they have considered both motorcyclists and cost effectiveness before proceeding with their installation. Education of road users about excessive speed is central to our road safety strategy.

I trust that my reply goes some way to providing an understanding of the current approach taken in New Zealand on this subject. I also wish you every success with your career in the field of medicine. Thank you for taking the time to write to me with your concerns. It is appreciated

Yours sincerely


Hon Harry Duynhoven
Minister for Transport Safety

From what I have gathered from this reply, our efforts to get the cheesecutters either removed or made biker friendly have gone unrecognized by the government. They appear to have only considered the statistics. I am not happy about this at all, and I suggest that you all make your opinions known to the transport minister.

[Mom]

PM Crashe

She spoke to Mr Dynhoven? at the labour Party Conference the week prior to the Cheesecutter protest ride in Auckland, I am sure she has a letter that say something different to that reply you have posted here.

What a crock!

[0arbreaka]

What a crock!

Exactly that.

[Blue Thunder]

Perhaps if one of our elected representatives of the peoples voice, had one of their loved ones killed or maimed by one of these lethal safety devices , we might see a change of heart!
I agree that for the vast majority of road user that these devices are working, BUT what about the so called minority of user for who they provide yet another hazard to deal with.
Yes speed may have been a factor in the deaths, but would those deaths necessarily have happened if the barrier was made of a different design?
I have witnessed the effect of several large rigs that have managed to climb over wire barriers but never one that has broken through concrete or steel!
Do armco or concrete walls have the same effect as striking a post 4" wide, I think not!
Consideration for motorcyclist and cost effectiveness, wot a load of BOLLOX, save money here and the MP's can enjoy more taxpayer funded trip overseas to visit thier partners in crime, surely they could do that by video conference or haven't they caught onto that technology yet??????

Time foe something else to be done! they won't listen to petitions voiced by the people who apparently elected them in to do the peoples bidding!
Throw the buggers out next election and hope we get some politicians that will do what they are elected to do , Not what some egotistical maniac tells them to do, to preserve their precious seat and inflated salary.!

[deanohit]

Sounds like it's time to send some gruesome pics of the aftermath of an accident involving these barriers with a note asking "What if this was your son or daughter?"

[rainman]

Over the ten year period from 1997 to 2007 (so far) there have been nine reports of a motorcyclist killed in New Zealand following impact with a safety barrier. Two of these involved a median barrier - one W-section ("Armco") and the recent wire rope crash. Both accidents were on an Auckland Motorway and both allegedly involved speed significantly in excess of the speed limit. None of the other seven involved a wire rope barrier.

Based on these statistics, there is no indication that wire rope barriers are more dangerous to motorcyclists than other types of barriers. Furthermore, motorcycle crashes with wire rope barriers are a very small percentage of the total motorcycle crashes.

It is clear that if we are to continue to reduce the number of fatalities and serious injuries on our roads, we need to make use of new ways of reducing the numbers and effects of crashes.

Some logical fallacies there. He first talks about the number of deaths, but then extends that to say the statistics show cheesecutters are "no more dangerous to motorcyclists than other types of barriers". To conclude this he would have to compare the results (from real crashes...) of motorcyclists hitting a range of barrier types at a range of operating speeds. How many "serious injuries" were there in the 10 year period? And for how many of these years have we had a significant length of cheesecutter installed? How does this correlate with motorcycle population growth over the 10 years? Is the sample size big enough to tell if the problem is getting worse?

Bah. Wish they'd teach people to think proper.

Some dickhead driver nearly pushed me into the barriers the other week. I was not going "significantly in excess of the speed limit", and I was watching closely as I was in his/her blind spot, so took evasive action. Had it gone differently (been wet, I'd been tired or otherwise less on to it) I would likely not have died, but it's likely at ~80km/h I would have had a Very Bad Experience hitting a WRB just a metre or two away. A concrete barrier would still hurt, but I'd bet my left one that injuries would be less, all else being equal.

Mind you, Duynhoven probably has a point with speed. It is the easy thing to blame... and as a group we may have a well-deserved reputation... We do provide a ready excuse by some of our own behaviour.

[trumpy]

Bah. Wish they'd teach people to think proper.

Did anyone really expext a reasoned and well thought out answer from this man? He has been a non event in every portfolio he has had and has a brain pre wired to toe the party line (unless aunty H says otherwise). Action Man he is not.
(p.s I don't partularly like the man........)

[yungatart]

Bollocks!

All the overseas research points to WRB being more hazardous to riders than other forms of barrier.

Keep getting those petition forms signed folks!
A petition must go before a parliamentary select committee, which is where we get to have our say.

[MSTRS:Me]

Dyunhoven's attitude is the one we are up against at Transit. He doesn't know a thing about the issue (and doubtless couldn't care less). He asks his officials for the answer and they in turn get it from Transit. This is proof that the campaign needs to be stepped up a notch into the civil disobedience area, IMO.

[ManDownUnder]

1) From what (incredibly little) I understand... 9 accidents does not make a sample size from which statistically valid conclusions can be reached.

Who are the statisticians in here? Post some (plain english) comment on this - what sample size is needed etc etc etc

2) What overseas research is on hand that contradicts what was said?
3) Crashe... you got that letter?
4) What else can we put together. It needs to be/sound/present "reasonable"
5) Keep in contact with the man. Every response is important, just as every attempt to con6act him is
6) Anyone know how to book a slot on Campbell live with Harry, Helen, John Key and the National Minister for Transport safety? A time suitably damaging... just enough to paint them in an UGLY light and really make 'em squirm before the elections would be nice.

Did I mention I know Harry (a few years back now though)... and John Key happens to be my MP... office about 4km from my house?

[ManDownUnder]

National has an axe to grind with LTNZ... hoarding cash... http://www.national.org.nz/Article.aspx?ArticleId=11515

I can think of something they could spend it on... y'know... safety...

[Finn]

I think some of you actually think that this Government actually cares for the general wellbeing of NZders. Quite simply, they don't give a shit. They are only in power for self serving reasons. Just look at all the bills they've past when over 80% of the country are against them...

Vote National. It's time for a refreshing change.

[Usarka]

Harry wouldnt have replied, it would have been one of his lackies.

Vote national. because next year we're not allowed to say that.

[vifferman]

Indeed, there is good evidence to suggest that if no barrier was in place, the likely result of a motorcyclist coming off their bike would be the same if not worse - ie: the motorcyclist may a strike roadside hazard or oncoming traffic.

This is a bit of a non sequitur - a WRB is a roadside hazard!

[clint640]

1) From what (incredibly little) I understand... 9 accidents does not make a sample size from which statistically valid conclusions can be reached.

Who are the statisticians in here? Post some (plain english) comment on this - what sample size is needed etc etc etc

Statistics hardly come into it, as rainman points out, there's simply no logic to their assertion that WRMB are no more dangerous based on 'the above statistics'

Tryin to deny that a WRMB is more dangerous than its concrete equivalent is tryin to deny the bleedingly feckin obvious. You can tell just by looking at them. The physics of whats going to happen when hitting them would be clear to a 10 year old.

Cheers
Clint