wtf?

[Grahameeboy]

Perhaps you could go and preach your wake up call at the funeral. I think I know who would get the smack between the eyes...

Atakmn..........(anagram of Katman)

[idb]

It's a toughie alright.

In such a large forum, no matter what you opine on, someone is always going to be affronted.
If we all worried about upsetting someone every time we made a comment then the discourse would be very thin indeed.
In fact, there is always a character type that looks for a reason to be insulted or upset.

On the other hand I can only imagine the pain felt by those who have lost a close family member and are then confronted with negative opinions of their loved one's conduct leading up to his demise, especially when they are based on inaccurate or unknown suppositions or information.

I suggest that it should be down to the individual's own conscience and values to decide.

If you don't agree with Katman or Ixion then can I also suggest that you discuss it with them by PM, otherwise you are assisting in perpetuating the thread?
If you are confident in your stance then there is no reason that the discussion has to be in public.

[ital916]

I think we should just let the family and friends grieve for their loss at the moment, leave it for a week, then get a post running about safe riding with positive inputs, where people can discuss their opinions in a reasonable manner without throwing "fuckwit" around too much. And all the people who hate katman, and the people who katman loves to wind up can slug it out in a discussion forum. For now though the time is to grieve. If it has been removed, there will be a reason. Again my condolences.

[dipshit]

I think we should just let the family and friends grieve for their loss at the moment, leave it for a week, then get a post running about safe riding with positive inputs

Except next week there will probably be someone else dead and the same "not the right time" crap will apply... and so on and so on.

[madbikeboy]

You can't libel a dead person. Legal oddity (it'd be libel, slander is verbal)

The people who the message needs to reach won't belong to BRONZ.

Wordsworth - "publish and be damned". Old English common law - if you write something, it has to be true, if it's not, and it's unfounded, then the person accused has a chance to sue for damages (I think you can sue under a family name as well, but it's not my area, and it was a long time ago that I studied law). The total defence is, well, truth. If what you were saying was true, then there is no case.

Also, you have the ability to write honest opinion - if you wrote something off the back of an event that's you opinion and stated it was such, then that can be a defense.

[imdying]

Both sides appear to have some good points.

I have no idea what we'll do at nzsbf in a case like this. I expect I'll have to put it to the floor, come to consensus with the group, and then we'll pretty much stick to that.

As far as libel or whatever goes, I think you'd have a hard time prosecuting someone who thought that what they were saying was based on fact, but IANAL.

Katman and/or Ixion, have you perhaps considered a blog? I believe this site offers that as a feature? You could perhaps link to it in your sig?

I don't believe it's a KB thing, it seems more like a motorcyclist thing, perhaps even a young males on a sportsbike thing.

One small suggestion I might make is to place threads like that into the biker survival sub forum, which is ultimately where they belong. On the one hand, they'll miss a bit of traffic which is admittedly a little self defeatist if the aim is to spread the word about us essentially killing ourselves, but on the other, the families are less likely to trawl that far through the site without being pointed in that direction. Both sides will lose a little, but both sides will gain a little.

I've nothing useful to add to the topic in this thread that would make me anything other than a hypocrite, but I still feel it's worth saying 'The 2 second rules isn't a bad thing to keep in mind, and even the police will tell you to take it out into the countryside'. Time and a place doesn't just relate to this thread.

[eliot-ness]

A lot of the comments posted on the original thread were based on the comment in Speedies post, "a bike travelling at 110 kmh on Marua road". So far I've seen nothing to back up that figure. Was he being followed by a cop? Was he caught on a speed camera? Guesswork of a pedestrian perhaps? Maybe that "fact" should have been left out of the post until there is an official report into the accident.
As to whether the thread should have been deleted. The site rules remind me somewhat of the seatbelt case in the USA, early 60s. Volvo, the inventors of the safety belt, allowed free access to the manufacturing rights when they realised how many lives could be saved. Only one US manufacturer, Ford, took them up on the offer. Ford were immediately threatened with blacklisting by a federation of dealers and manufacturers because, in their words, "the fitting of safety belts will give the impression that motor cars are dangerous".
I wonder how many lives were lost before those ostriches saw sense.
In my opinioin all the "facts" of an accident should be discussed openly. Supposition and guesswork have no value and can only show disrespect for the rider involved.

[MSTRS:Me]

See I really want to give my opinion on what you have just said there but it's against the rules to talk about the incident until later.

But i'll bring it up after the funeral if people are still even interested..

The point is - after the funeral (whatever) people have moved on and any discussion is more likely to be futile.
Respect for the bereaved is fine, but even the general terms discussion of realities are canned in these cases. Ixion etc are right in their comments about
'heads in the sand'.

[Hitcher]

Maybe the Heaven Born should make dying against the rulez. Then we could all live for ever.

Nonsense. If members could keep a such a thread on topic, rather than slagging off each other's abilities or opinions, or speaking ill of the dead, etc, then it would stand some chance of success. There have been several attempts at such threads over the years. Initially "cherry-picking" Moderation can keep them alive and on topic, but they generally quickly degenerate into senseless discussion and abuse.

If members struggle to maintain sensible and reasoned debate on "emotional" matters, then that is hardly the Moderators' problem.

[yungatart]

Part of me thinks that those who are mature enough to come to the realisation that "shit, that could be me", will moderate their riding anyway, based purely on the demise of a fellow KBer. They will not need any facts or details to do this.
Those who cannot come to that point without the facts and details probably will continue to ride as if they are 10 ft tall and bullet proof, even if all the facts and details are available to them.
Maybe these threads only preach to the converted any way.

my 2c

[dangerous]

Nonsense. If members could keep a such a thread on topic, rather than slagging off each other's abilities or opinions

Its not a perfect world Hitch, and no mods ever going to make it one. show me a forum thats all flowers and fluffy... no such thing, my posts that were removed due to off topic was me trying to keep a little humour in a sad thread, man thers nothing worse than a thread full of goths... ya know you post above would be considered off topic my some around here, but thats a net for ya, threads will never stick to topic... never.

[ManDownUnder]

If the family asked it be removed, how about we respect that? This tradgedy only occured a couple of days ago.

Few words - so much truth.

[EnzoYug]

kiwibiker is a forum, and should not be used in place of professional training or experience. Those who are getting upset and angry would do well to remember that one thread - no matter how much effort or thought went into it - is just one among many and it's removal is no great loss in of itself.

A young man is dead. Get some perspective.

Then post.

[quackquack]

I just think that the threads about tis sort of thing are good if constructive but I don't think that it is in the safe area as a tribute thread. The family will see the both threads and that is not desirable if looking at the tribute thread

[MotoGirl]

When you see people who have been "10ft and bulletproof" posting how things must change/they are changing,maybe just maybe some of the others may "click".

What utter bullshit! If the shock factor (that is, the continuous stream of carnage on TV and fellow KBers dying left, right and centre) has no effect and doesn't get through to them, I hardly think they're going to change their riding because someone else has "Had an epiphany...".

The fallen riders would also have had an epiphany if they had survived to benefit from the result of their actions.