Other bikers you want to "knock" sense into

[swbarnett]

taxes suck

Only when the population at large feel they're not getting value for money.

There are two ways to operate a tax system - tax high and provide government sponsored health, education etc.. or tax low and let the individual pay on top of that for health, education etc.. Both can work if properly managed but I prefer the latter as in reality I think private enterprise could probably do a much better job of health, education etc.. if given the entire job (not just small pieces of it as they currently do).

[Bass]

very good point....

Hmm, this gots me a thinking. I have a job and pay taxes like the next guy, if i bail and break something, you lot pay to have me fixed, if you bail, the rest of us pay to have you fixed... So it kinda works no?

But all in all, the tax payer doesn't give the money directly to the fool who crashed, do they? Our taxes are payed regularly, regardless of how many people crash.

So really, this isn't a thread about people not wearing gear and needing a good talking to (which it was meant to be), but instead its effectively about how we all hate fucking taxes... And i think the idea is that if people wore gear, hurt themselves less, we would pay less taxes, and i highly doubt that...

Get what im saying? cause i sure as hell dont


p.s: taxes suck

Sort of.
As I hinted, I actually think that ACC on the whole is a pretty good system. It is most certainly WAY better than some of the alternatives e.g. the litigation industry in the States.

However because of the way it works, it comes with some consequences.
ACC spend a sizeable chunk of our tax money and so are under significant pressure to do it wisely and to keep it to a minimum.

Consequently, when ACC say to govt "hey, we have a group of users out there that are costing us much more than we are collecting from them in levies", then govt tends to have a look at that group and think about what laws they can pass, to make that group less expensive.

Motorcyclists are very much such a group.

There are those amongst us (me for example) who suspect that if we do not reduce our costs to ACC, then at the very least, our levies will rise and perhaps we may see legislation enacted which significantly restricts our legal activies

[Bass]

Translate this into law and ALL "dangerous" activities become illegal (including motorcycling in whatever form).

Exactly right, which is why I phrased it as I did. The means exist for those to whom this topic refers to take better care of themselves. I am by no means suggesting their activity is prohibited

Everybody has their own idea of what is wise and what is foolishness. That Miss Bopper assigns different priorities does not make her wrong (or you wrong, either).

That is the whole point of something like ACC. It makes no judgements about what people do.

I concur - mostly
However, in most legal hazardous activities, there are some basic precautions that any reasonable person would take - safety glasses at a grinding wheel for example. I feel much the same way about appropriate clothing when motorcycling,
And yes, this is where I draw the line.
It may not be so for everyone and in that case I would not class them as reasonable.
However, as for ACC making no judgements, I don't believe the fact aligns with the philosophy here - see my previous post about ACC funding and its connection to Govt.

PS I am making a complete hypocrite of myself here too, because if you know where to look, there is a picture in these annals of me using a grinder with no eye protection.

[EZAS]

If gear was compulsory then ACC, I'd hope but wouldn't expect the ACC levies to be lowered, however, I'd also expect there to be a huge increase in revenue gathering (fines), win win situation for the country.

[Headbanger]

I do not demand the "right to do what I want to do". But I do explicitly demand the right not to be forced , by you, to do only what YOU want to do. And I equally emphatically deny your assertion that you should have the right to force your own opinions and preferences onto the rest of the world, and to set your own prejudices up as an authority higher than law.

You are liberty, within the law, to make your own decisions for yourself. Yet you would deny that to anyone else (unless, of course, they happen to completely agree with you).

I know not whether to be the more amazed at your presumption, your stupidity, or your arrogance. I do know that I reject all of them.

QFT.

........

[scracha]

You're assuming that (a) novice riders are young and (b) that all novice riders would attend such a course just because it's compulsary.

<----snip --->
Some of them are quite competant riders,a nd just haven't done the paper work thing. Others, otherwise.
<----snip --->

I never assumed they were young. Plenty of stupid old riders who can't seem to grasp that if they fall off their bike it will hurt a lot more than when they crashed their Holden.

Regards to unlicensed riders....that's a different issue and the lack of enforcement in this area needs addressed. My viewpoint on this is the same as on drunk drivers and unlicensed car drivers....they shouldn't be covered by ACC if they crash. Why the hell should the rest of us pay if johnny fucktard decides he fancies riding an R1 without any training and then crashes it. A night in Gaol for the unlicensed wouldn't be a bad idea either. The threat of a good shag up the arse might be an incentive for them to get their license.

[motorbyclist]

There are two ways to operate a tax system - tax high and provide government sponsored health, education etc.. or tax low and let the individual pay on top of that for health, education etc.. Both can work if properly managed but I prefer the latter as in reality I think private enterprise could probably do a much better job of health, education etc.. if given the entire job (not just small pieces of it as they currently do).

if we all had to pay for our own private healthcare we'd be priced out of many of our pastimes, or many people simply wouldn't have health insurance. why you'd want companies to try to make a profit from our misfortune is beyond me.

then you end up in a situation in the states where one slip up and you're screwed as your insurance wont cover you, and/or you're being sued for something

[swbarnett]

if we all had to pay for our own private healthcare we'd be priced out of many of our pastimes, or many people simply wouldn't have health insurance.

Three facts make this work in Switzerland:

1. Compulsary health insurance (government pays for the poor end of society).
2. Guarenteed approval. Insurance companies cannot refuse insurance to anybody, no matter your physical condition.
3. No fault insurance. Doesn't matter how you get hurt, you're still covered.

why you'd want companies to try to make a profit from our misfortune is beyond me.

Are you saying that we shouldn't pay our medical staff?
The profit motive is also a powerful incentive to increase efficiency.

then you end up in a situation in the states where one slip up and you're screwed as your insurance wont cover you, and/or you're being sued for something

See above. Insurance will cover you, no sueing.

[2fst4u]

i was just on holiday for two weeks in the south island (riding in the back seat of family cage) and i got really pissed off by the four or so bikers, all on harleys (no offence to harley riders, they just were okay?) who on seperate occasions thought it would be a good idea to come screaming up behind everyone (us and others on road) and without indication or notification of intentions, overtook everyone, weaving in and out of each cage. one even on double yellow lines. now speeding isnt good but in my eyes if you feel comfortable, it's ok. but reckless riding... . i honestly thought those people were about to get taken out by someone coming around the blind corners nearly all of them were approaching. i hope some of them do. that should teach them the lesson they so dearly require.

so to all those harley riders- STOP BEING SUCH DICKS. YOU DON'T OWN THE ROAD!!!!!

not all south islanders are shit riders though. i saw many-a-rider paying meticulous attention to road rules and common sense.

oh, and also, we went over an unsealed portion of a central otago road and saw a CBR rider approach it in the opposite direction. i hope he/she didnt bin it and that he/she made sure the awesome bike they were riding still looks awesome and not dusty!

[toycollector10]

I think this post has been hijacked a little into an ACC thread thingy.

I'm 54 years old. I have never been seriously injured. Maybe due to good luck rather than good judgement, but I always like to stack the cards in my favour when I ride. I see youngsters, speed freaks and guys older than me who should know better being utter dickheads on the road. Life and good health is precious. To not give yourself the best chance of avoiding pain, disfigurement, mental impairment or death is just crazy. All for what...The wind in your hair, shorts, sandals and no gloves because "It's too hot, mummy" ??

It's bad enough out there competing with cagers who don't give a shit about you or your life without lowering the odds even further.

I got a warning from a moderator for getting all personal and up in Ixions' postings. Fill your boots, the lot of you. When you bin without gloves or decent gear, and you will, sooner or later, and the skin grafts aren't taking and it's hurting like all buggery all the time and they won't give you any more pethedine or morphine, you will then understand what an effing bloody crap trade-off it all was. Personal freedom versus freedom from pain. I'll take the latter every time.

[toycollector10]

I was cruising down St Asaph St. in Christchurch this morning. It's one-way, two lanes heading South-West. The guy in the courier van, parked on the right hand side, walks around the front of his van and the Asian woman on my right just about takes him out. Ever seen a batsman avoid a bouncer that pitches up to head height? That was him, he had to rock back on his heels as this woman just zoomed past him and missed him by about an inch or so. That's how easy it is to be taken out. One tenth of a second and it could be all over. Any place, any time, as the cops say.

[swbarnett]

Personal freedom versus freedom from pain. I'll take the latter every time.

I totally agree with you and I think most would, most of the time.

What we're afraid of is that if the law gets involved in what is, essentially, a personal choice issue we sill eventually have no personal choice left.

The Personal aspect must be respected. If someone is silly enough to take the risk or genuinely believes that they've got a better chance of not coming off if not wearing the gear then that's their choice.

[zeocen]

All I can say on the gear subject is, I am glad I was wearing all my gear when I came off, so I can get back on much sooner!

[MisterD]

ITo not give yourself the best chance of avoiding pain, disfigurement, mental impairment or death is just crazy. All for what...The wind in your hair, shorts, sandals and no gloves because "It's too hot, mummy" ??

But that's the whole point - it always has to be a personal assessment of risk. Along with Ixion, I totally reject the concept of you making that assessment for me.

Because of what, and how, I ride - I set my minimum gear at trainers, gloves and lid (full face, but only because the vents actually make it cooler than my Davida jet). I wouldn't ride a sprotsbike at all, becuase I perceive the risk to health and licence too great, so does that give me the right to criticise those who do? Absolutely not.

[MSTRS:Me]

The biggest cost factor in ACC motorcycling premiums is quite certainly sprotsbikes. The single most effective way to reduce them so everyone pays less: all you buggers stop crashing so often.

Is that right? I wonder how many bike related injuries that ACC covers are as a result of dirtbikes? Most of which have no ACC component in their registration, cos they aren't registered.