Which 650 to buy?

[warewolf]

I hate pedants, now if Warewolf turns up as well, I'm offing myself.

No need for that but if you do, do it in Papakura so the rain will wash the blood away

Reckon if they go for DRs, they should try it out before they take delivery: a good test is to come to a stop perpendicular to the kerb with the front wheel up on it. If lowering is warranted, get the dealer to make the proper adjustments as part of the deal. At the first service, again if it is felt warranted, swap them back to the higher setting. Change the fork oil while it is apart, something that is not usually done but could be worthwhile.

But these folks are 5'8" with some dirt experience so shortening may not be a priority.

[Qkchk:Me]

But these folks are 5'8" with some dirt experience so shortening may not be a priority.

Ask me anything about Road Bikes and Im sure I can tell you what you need to know, but when it comes down to figuring out what would be the best adventure bike for us............

Done more research on the DR650 and the DRZ400E. The 400 is the road going one selling for $9995. The reviews on this bike make it a good contender (im sure it would be very capable on the road in adventure setup), only issue I can see with the bike is the taller seat. Perhaps getting a 'tard kit for it wouldnt be a bad thing either, making it a more versatile bike. There is one for sale on Tardme but we arent quite ready to buy yet.

Sat on a DR650 yesterday, felt heavier than expected however assuming riding one around for a couple of hours I guess you just 'acclimatise' to the feel of the bike. Still got to go and look at the KLR650 which I might try to do this arvo.....

With Adventure riding, what would be the hardest terrain that you would come across? The kind of riding we wish to get into is like the Safari they have down in the South Island this weekend. A mixture of Road, gravel, 4wd tracks, water crossings, walking tracks etc... Not too interested in mud/hard core stuff/jumping over logs etc...

BTW Thanks for all the input and please carry on with the constructive banter!

[Bass]

Sat on a DR650 yesterday, felt heavier than expected however assuming riding one around for a couple of hours I guess you just 'acclimatise' to the feel of the bike. Still got to go and look at the KLR650 which I might try to do this arvo.....

When making this same comparason, what it came down to for me was that there is nearly 30 kg difference in weight between the 2 machines. The KLR is a nice bit of kit - no mistake - but I bought a DR. I have already found that when it is lying down (bugger, how did that happen?) with a fair weight of luggage on the back, I can still pick it up; not easily, but I CAN do it. I am not confident that I could do the same with the KLR

[carver]

DR 650, no question

ridden the XT660x, and it wasnt as good as it should have been

owned the KLR, but its pretty much a road bike (big, tall and heavy)

the DR was always my favourite

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...5&d=1179653562

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...6&d=1179653562

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...0&d=1179653716

[warewolf]

With Adventure riding, what would be the hardest terrain that you would come across? The kind of riding we wish to get into is like the Safari they have down in the South Island this weekend. A mixture of Road, gravel, 4wd tracks, water crossings, walking tracks etc... Not too interested in mud/hard core stuff/jumping over logs etc...

Adventure is where you find it That stuff is what the majority of us on here do, except we organise it ourselves.

The hardest terrain would be either loose beach sand (upsets people who haven't spent a lot of time riding in Woodhill forest ) or wet clay. A slick or boggy steep surface is the thing that stops most people. The heavier your bike or slicker your tyres, then the more you need rider skill. Adventure rides don't tend to have jumps & logs, although frequently there are humps in open paddocks or contour banks that can be used at your discretion.

Sometimes you have no real choice about mud, it's a product of the terrain and the weather. It is not uncommon to find easy trails (roads even) have become quite fun slick clay with rain, at which point you wish you'd gone for the chunkier tyres. Several years ago on an adventure ride, I was in a small group that included a couple of former national enduro champions and a novice. It had rained but was clear when we started the last 40 minute loop. It took us 5 hours to complete that loop. The prior year they'd had R100GSs do it on dual-purpose tyres. The next year in the dry I couldn't believe how short that loop was, nor how easy it was.

A few of the Dusty Butters found the Porika Track a challenge. It was dry and steep with loose gravel and boulders... and that was just on the down journey!

[Qkchk:Me]

DR 650, no question

ridden the XT660x, and it wasnt as good as it should have been

owned the KLR, but its pretty much a road bike (big, tall and heavy)

the DR was always my favourite

Thanks, your opinion is making the decision easier. Seems the DR650 is a great all-rounder with a terrific $$$ tag. How well does the DR650 sit on the road? 120kph no problem? Nice pics BTW!

[Qkchk:Me]

The hardest terrain would be either loose beach sand (upsets people who haven't spent a lot of time riding in Woodhill forest ) or wet clay.

Ive done a bit of deep sand stuff and know it can be hard work. Thats why Im a bit cautious about the size of the DR650.... but I dont want a 250.

[Bass]

One of the downsides of the DR (and there are a few) is that it is the lowest powered of the group. Yes it will cruise at 120 kph and will do (I think) around 145 - 150 flat out. However, 120 is at the top end of its happy cruising range. It is noticeably happier at 110.

You will disagree with these numbers if you take one for a thrash, but the DR speedos are notoriously optimistic. Mine overreads by just on 10%. The numbers I have given are the real values.

[Transalper]

Id say they top out a bit faster than that, I like to cruise at an indicated 110 to 115km/hr, I've seen an indicated 170km/hr on the track, take 10% off that would make it about 153km/hr but judging by other bikes i've run next to either we all have dicky speedo readings or it just isn't that far out on my bike... more like closer to 5% I thought.
Either way like Bass says..

You will disagree with these numbers if you take one for a thrash

It's not an issue while actually riding it.

Also that was standard motor, with one tooth down on the front and stock rear gearing. Flat/calm day. A strong head wind gust will knock some out of it.
Do we start talking about compromise now again?

[XRKID]

it would be a XR no questions asked, my mate has one and they are bloody good, heaps of tourque and not too light but they huel like a train, can get 200kmh out of them sweet for riding the long stretch

[Crisis management]

How do you make the ride soft or hard with the preload?
It's the same spring, it will move the same amount for the same load CHANGE regardless of where you set the preload.
Now making it high or low, I can understand.
However it also has a progressive linkage and so lowering it (softening it in your terms) actually increases the damping rate and the spring rate. So the real effect is to harden it surely?

Yeah, I know. Pedantic SOB

Methinks I've spotted the fallacy in this...........

I take from your comments that you are assuming that when the suspension is fully compressed the spring is also fully compressed but my understanding (note placatory tone in case I've fucked up again) is that the suspension travel is limited by the damper movement not the spring reaching a coil bound condition.
So, by reducing the preload, the spring (when suspension fully compressed) is less compressed than with the preload wound tighter. As the spring is now not fully compressed it must have taken a lighter load to reach this state, ie; a softer suspension.

Prove me wrong ya bastards!

To get back on topic and seeing as Honda's were mentioned, Hondahs are ghey!

[warewolf]

I take from your comments that you are assuming that when the suspension is fully compressed the spring is also fully compressed but my understanding (note placatory tone in case I've fucked up again) is that the suspension travel is limited by the damper movement not the spring reaching a coil bound condition.
So, by reducing the preload, the spring (when suspension fully compressed) is less compressed than with the preload wound tighter. As the spring is now not fully compressed it must have taken a lighter load to reach this state, ie; a softer suspension.

Prove me wrong ya bastards!

All in the name of science! I don't think he's saying that; I'd expect that at both full- and no-preload the spring would not be coil-bound at full suspension compression.

You are right about the load on the spring with less preload: there is less force on it at full compression - in other words, with less preload the suspension will bottom more readily. Adding preload is a stop-gap measure to help reduce bottoming.

However, Bass suggested the ride will be harsher with less preload because the bike will sit further through the rear suspenders' stroke; that is, further up the rising-rate multiplier through the shock linkage. That is why a weak spring over-preloaded will be harsh in the initial travel, and a stronger spring with less preload will be more compliant.

[Edit: As I have said before, suspension is a system and the inter-relationships are important. Static and dynamic behaviour may not be what it seems at first.]

[Bass]

Methinks I've spotted the fallacy in this...........

I take from your comments that you are assuming that when the suspension is fully compressed the spring is also fully compressed but my understanding (note placatory tone in case I've fucked up again) is that the suspension travel is limited by the damper movement not the spring reaching a coil bound condition.
So, by reducing the preload, the spring (when suspension fully compressed) is less compressed than with the preload wound tighter. As the spring is now not fully compressed it must have taken a lighter load to reach this state, ie; a softer suspension.

Prove me wrong ya bastards!

To get back on topic and seeing as Honda's were mentioned, Hondahs are ghey!

No - you've bollixed it again
You are quite right in your assertion that the total travel is controlled by the damper stoke. However, if when riding the bike, we come up against either limit, then something is wrong or we are really punishing the bike. For average Joes like us, we really try and set it up so that it is neither topping out or bottoming out. It gets really hard on the arse and the handling goes completely to shit otherwise. It's also important for the rest of this treatise that we consider only the case where the spring is not restrained by the shock having reached either end of its travel limits.
Actually, I just had this whole conversation a couple of days ago in the Cruiser threads.
What it comes down to is that as a reasonable approximation, the spring obeys Hookes law. What Mr Hooke said was that the spring compression is directly proportional to the load placed on it or C = kL where k is some constant which is unique to that particular spring.
Now a direct consequence of this is that, for a given load, the length of the spring is fixed. What that means is, that if we stand the bike on its wheels with your delicate arse and some luggage aboard and then get you to balance with your feet off the ground for a second while we measure the spring length, we will get the same length with that load regardless of what you do to your adjustments.
If you increase the preload, you push down harder on the top of the spring, the shock extends a bit, the swingarm moves down so that the spring length stays the same and the bike stands a bit taller.
At this point, I would like to say that the only thing that has changed is the ride height and if the adjustment is only a small one, then that is essentially true. However, the DR like most modern single shock bikes has a rising rate linkage. This means that as you compress the rear end the shock and spring travel rate increases with a maximum when fully compressed. This is a cool idea cos it makes the rear end nice and soft in the small stuff but highly resistent to bottoming out in the nasties.
However, if you think this through, it means that as you increase the preload and jack the bike up, you are moving the linkage to the extended or softer end of its curve. Although it's instinctively quite wrong, as you increase the preload, you actually soften the ride.

[cooneyr]

.......With Adventure riding, what would be the hardest terrain that you would come across? The kind of riding we wish to get into is like the Safari they have down in the South Island this weekend. A mixture of Road, gravel, 4wd tracks, water crossings, walking tracks etc... Not too interested in mud/hard core stuff/jumping over logs etc.......

As others have said logs/jumps etc are pretty much at your discretion. As time goes on and your skills improve you will find that you can punt a big heavy Pig (ausi's nickname for for a DR650) over some pretty interesting stuff.

....120kph no problem?

I recon wind loading on yourself becomes a problem long before the bike runs out of grunt. They will easily and happily pull 120 indicated continuously. Factory rated top speed is 160. They will haul out to 140 with some left in an appropriate situation

One of the downsides of the DR (and there are a few) is that it is the lowest powered of the group. Yes it will cruise at 120 kph and will do (I think) around 145 - 150 flat out. However, 120 is at the top end of its happy cruising range. It is noticeably happier at 110.

The DRZ400 and DR650 have similar amounts of tourque and power but it is about how it is delivered (i.e. where in the rev range) and the gearing. The DR650 would be nicer to ride at 120 on a motorway for any length of time.

........However, if you think this through, it means that as you increase the preload and jack the bike up, you are moving the linkage to the extended or softer end of its curve. Although it's instinctively quite wrong, as you increase the preload, you actually soften the ride.

This is all good and I completely understand/agree. One question though. What if you are a fat/big person like me and you increasing the spring preload to get the ride height back to around (still too low) the intended height i.e. get the ride/dynamic sag to the correct value? Surely for me to ride it should be no harsher (if this is the correct word) than little WW (I'm just jealous ) on a different DR, set at the same ride/dynamic sag? I would guess that the damping (especially the rebound) is too soft in this situation though so it is a bit to "springy"?

Cheers R

[Crisis management]

I reckon I at least scored some points!

Thanks for the explanation you two, I will go back to the suspension and have a poke at it until I fully understand what it means (this may take some time).