Plans to reduce speed camera tollerance to 5 km/h and add demerit points!

**kiwistorm** · 13th August 2003, 08:08

Extract from todays Herald newspaper:

Hidden speed cameras in get-tough traffic plan

13.08.2003
By STUART DYE

Hidden speed cameras are likely to make a comeback on New Zealand roads. And drivers snapped exceeding speed limits could get demerit points as well as a fine. The two moves are part of a plan to get tough on speedsters and reduce the road toll. Hidden cameras were tested in the Waikato in a trial that ended three years ago. A review of them could not establish conclusively that they were effective. Now the cameras are back as part of a move to reduce road deaths. Full details of the plan will be issued by the end of the year. Transport chiefs want to reach a target of no more than 300 deaths on the roads each year by 2010. The number of lives lost has dropped significantly over the past 10 years, but Transport Minister Paul Swain says the reduction has reached a plateau. "Unless we take concerted steps we cannot get out of this plateau," he told the Local Authority Traffic Institute's annual conference in Auckland. "We won't make any significant progress unless we are prepared to bite the bullet and try something new." The Government's transport committee is looking at several options. They include lowering the legal blood alcohol limit from 0.08 per cent to 0.05 per cent. Hidden speed cameras could work in tandem with the signposted ones already in use. Offenders might also be given demerit points if caught on camera. Points are now given only when a traffic offender is caught by police. A Police Association survey of 750 people this year found the majority supported the increased use of hidden speed cameras, and reducing the blood-alcohol limit for driving. Under the proposals, officers may also be given powers to lower the tolerance limit for speeding drivers from 10km/h to 5km/h. And demerit points could be doubled for driving dangerously at peak times and on public holidays. In a separate move, the Government is investigating a ban on drivers using cellphones. The Government's goal is to have fewer than 300 fatalities and 4500 hospital admissions a year as a result of road crashes by 2010. An interim step is to reduce fatalities to 400 and hospital admissions to 5870 by next year. Last year's road toll of 404 was the lowest since 1963. Mr Swain said this was despite New Zealand's vehicle fleet almost trebling in size and a huge increase in distances travelled since 1963. This year's road toll was slightly higher than at the same time last year. Alcohol and excessive speed were the two most significant factors in road deaths and injuries. "Together, they are the most significant factor in over half of all fatal crashes," Mr Swain said. The traffic institute conference ended yesterday. Earlier in the three-day meeting, pupils from Gladstone Primary School in Mt Albert performed songs in memory of the 84 children killed on the roads in the past five years. Institute president Andy Foster said the performance brought home the reality of the tragic deaths. He would continue lobbying the Government to introduce all the changes outlined to improve road safety. The toll * 404 people died on New Zealand roads last year. * 84 children have died on New Zealand roads in the past five years. * 276 people have been killed so far this year. The latest plan Road safety proposals to bring the numbers down include: * lowering legal blood alcohol limit * covert speed cameras * lowering 10km/h police tolerance level to speeding * reducing speed limits outside schools * double de-merit points for infringements at busy times

**wkid_one** · 13th August 2003, 08:27

Interesting - the 10kph allowance was typically provided to allow for the inconsistencies in speedometer readings in different vehicles - this zero tolerance policy is ridiculous?? Where does the research support that an additional 5kph is going to reduce the road toll??

I do agree however with the BAC level - this should be where the zero tolerance exists.....

Alcohol and excessive speed were the two most significant factors in road deaths and injuries, he said.

Me thinks 10kph over the speed limit isn't 'excessive speed' - it interests me that the police force are so focused on the road toll at the complete disregard for all other policing matters??

Mr Swain said this was despite the size of New Zealand's vehicle fleet almost trebling and a huge increase in distances travelled over that period.

Last year's road toll of 404 was the lowest since 1963.

Hmmm - don't these statements contradict the whole article - more vehicles and miles done - yet the road toll the lowest since 1963?? I would guess average speeds are up in this time as well - and the road largely haven't changed?

I still stand by my original statements about this - surely with increasing vehicle numbers, and driven distances - the focus should be on improving roading to reduce the road toll......it seems in NZ - the Police and Government are more focused on blaming the drivers than their own inability to provide a safe driving environment??

**Dave** · 13th August 2003, 09:19

Current wof rules allow a 10% varience in speedo readings (not that they check)
at 5% they would never be able to enforce a single ticket.
(sorry your honour,my tyres were soft and the speedo read wrong!)

**Duke of Rogan** · 13th August 2003, 10:22

atleast on a bike we have only the one license plate, if they ever tried to make bikes have one on the front too...

**georgedubyabush** · 13th August 2003, 10:26

yeah, you'd have to resort to putting the front wheel up in the air to obscure their view of the plate.

**MrMelon** · 13th August 2003, 11:02

That's pretty stupid.. I'm sure more crashes would be caused by people trying to keep such a close eye on their speedo so they don't go over 105, and not paying enough attention to the road.

**MikeL** · 13th August 2003, 13:27

Originally posted by Duke of Rogan
atleast on a bike we have only the one license plate, if they ever tried to make bikes have one on the front too...

Don't laugh too soon: they're talking seriously about that in at least one Australian state (Victoria, which seems to be the model that N.Z. for some unaccountable reason usually follows).

As for getting the road toll down to 300, there is something called the law of diminishing returns which will mean that to achieve that result will require hugely more input in the form of law changes, resources, policing etc. Sooner or later someone there must start using some common sense, surely???

(I won't hold my breath)

**jrandom** · 13th August 2003, 15:33

Well, I mean, FFS.

Fully agree with the above comments re. increase of road usage, number of drivers, average speed etc. The likely situation is that the roads are now much safer than they used to be, and at a level that's as safe as any reasonable user could hope for. Not that we'll ever have actual, useful data presented to us by the media or government to allow us to make that determination.

Where the hell does this obsessive drive to get the road toll down come from, anyway? Sure as hell I only know two types of people:

(a) those like myself, who think it's utterly stupid and a waste of resources;

(b) others who can't be arsed thinking hard about it, and go along with the flow because an 'authority' told them to.

I have *never* met a (c) type person, who would actually argue in *favour* of it. It seems that an utterly immoral revenue-gathering minority is running the whole shebang.

Why, I wonder, aren't we hearing about any concerted citizen-driven effort to present a rational viewpoint to the great unwashed? Perhaps it's time for someone to step forward...

Hmmmmm.

'The Political Party of Sane Intelligent People'... nah, that'd never work.

**jrandom** · 13th August 2003, 15:34

Oooh, look! 30 posts, and I'm a sc00t3r b0i... moving up in the world!

**Duke of Rogan** · 13th August 2003, 15:42

I think half of the NZ Police farce is being sent to the Solomon's anyway, pretty soon we'll have police free roads!

**wkid_one** · 13th August 2003, 18:18

Originally posted by Duke of Rogan
I think half of the NZ Police farce is being sent to the Solomon's anyway, pretty soon we'll have police free roads!

I'm as optimistic as the next person - but don't hold your breathe.

MikeL - you are right - with vehicle registrations going up, driver licenses going up, average miles increasing etc etc - you can't realistically expect the road toll to fall?? In my opinion holding it steady is an achievement - let alone reverting back to a level last seen in 1963 - fuck - what are they complaining about?? Where is the welldone NZ in reducing the road toll?? Instead it is 'sorry it is not good enough, we haven't collected enough revenue yet, so we intend to reduce the BAC level and tolerance'

Hmmmm - I see a 'Minority Report' scenario - where they go ' Here is your motorcycle license sir.......but you can't have it cause you will get 100 demerit points in the first 3 months....so sorry!'

There must be a statistically accepted number of road fatalities based on vehicles/miles registered/done.

**bikerboy** · 13th August 2003, 18:33

Speeding is illegal. As soon as anyone argues against these police tactics people respond, it's illegal so you should get caught, fined, etc.

The real issue is what are reasonable speeds for the various types of roads, and then how much of the limited police resources should be targeting this offence, and finally what is a reasonable penalty.

Is it fair and appropriate to punish speeders twice?, demerit points and fines.

If one took a poll, I bet most people would place speeding as a low priority for the limited police resource compared to many other crimes the police say they don't have resources to combat. I also think if they asked; should taxes be raised to fight speeding to lower the road toll, the majority would say no.

**Kokopelli** · 13th August 2003, 19:07

The Government's goal is to have fewer than 300 fatalities and 4500 hospital admissions a year as a result of road crashes by 2010. An interim step is to reduce fatalities to 400 and hospital admissions to 5870 by next year. Last year's road toll of 404 was the lowest since 1963

I believe that is what appeals to them. They figure that they will be able to save lots of money in the health sector. So it is a win win situation, get money from tickets or save on health care. And it is very difficult to argue against that, as someone has pointed out before. After all speeding is illegal, and often innocent people get hurt.

Crimes against property does not attract as much attention, because it ends up being an insurance issue not the responsibility of the government. Unless they can be convinced that this approach wil cost them votes it is unlikely to change.

It comes down to money and not real concern about any victims.

**wkid_one** · 13th August 2003, 21:38

Originally posted by bikerboy
Speeding is illegal. As soon as anyone argues against these police tactics people respond, it's illegal so you should get caught, fined, etc.

Don't disagree- but they are talking about 5kph - hardly a speeding issue..with common speedo variances of 10% - this action seems entirely unfounded on any statistical basis

**Redstar** · 13th August 2003, 22:10

Its a good point that there is a side issue to the road toll and thats deaths to pedestrians caused by motorists. its an unmastakable statatistic that we over represent ourselfs in the death per k stakes but we sure as hell kill ourselves in preference to kids at crossings. we are more alert and aware in such situations.