Braking

[inlinefour]

Go practice it this weekend.

Get a mate, find an empty carpark and go to town.

Make sure you have trailer backup to hand.

Had a bus change lanes this morning. He indicated as he whipped into the lane I occupied.

I locked the front.

I didn't fall off.

I held it as long as I dared and as the bars started to turn, backed off and held it just on the point before locking. The front tyre howled. It all happened in a fraction of the time it took to read this, but if you don't know what an incipient lockup feels like you'll fall off when you least want to.

I've been practicing lately when I've been able to make time. It pays off.

I'm no hero, all of you should be able to do this. Bet you'll lock the brakes on your car without hesitation.

Geeze Jim2, you have lost that bet allready. ABS is my friend and believe me, I have tried to lock them up...

[James Deuce]

I absolutely disagree.

I'll never be able to prove it; you can't prove a negative, but I'd bet good money on the fact that there are people walking around out there in one piece who wouldn't be if a trackday hadn't given them the trust in their bike's cornering ability to get safely around an unexpectedly decreasing radius or sudden obstruction or bad surface on the road.

There's no logic there at all. NZ is a hilly country, full of decreasing radius corners and no sight line. With the exception of the tit they call a hill at Pukekohe all of NZ's race tracks are so flat you can wave to your Mum on the other side of the track.

They are the same 7-16 (or so) corners over and over and you won't find corners of that width or profile anywhere in the country without using the whole road. Tracks are in no way analogous to roads except for being coated in tarmac.

Getting confident on the track with no intention of racing just produces overconfident riders who bin in spectacular fashion when surprised with the unexpected in the real world. Just because you can go around a corner on the road at 275km/hr indicated, doesn't mean you should. Unless the trackday is structured and focuses on specific road skills most people aren't learning anything except how to nearly come to a stop, wobble around a corner, and then nail the throttle to the stop. I rather suspect that the normal trackday hounds wouldn't attend a proper training day because it would interfere with their knee slider destruction.

To learn you need to understand what you are doing, and how that influenced the outcome. Then you should be actively engaging in why you have limits and how those limits affect your approach to riding in a particular way. Learning by osmosis doesn't work.

I'd bet the only people trackdays have saved are those who are comfortable with a high level of risk, and who push their envelope irrespective of the environment they are using.

[SPman]

That said, the primary reason I go to trackdays is to make the edges of my tyres and the underside of my footpegs look used, pull rude gestures at my friends when I manage to ride around them, and get my knee down in front of professional photographers.

Or in my case, to wear the toe sliders off my boots (I'm a lazy cornererererer)
old habits...........

dying hard.......

etc etc........

[jrandom]

Or in my case, to wear the toe sliders off my boots (I'm a lazy cornererererer)

I have Sidi Evo Tepors. Waterproof touring boots, no toe sliders. So I have to get my tootsies up toot-sweet when the bike starts to tip, or it'll be socks on the tarmac in no time flat.

You shoulda seen DMNTD's boots by the end of the last MotoTT day - he can't bend his left leg up, so he just has to let it drag. He wore all the way through on one side and ended up scraping and blistering the skin on his foot.

Didn't slow him down, but.

I guess they don't call him DMNTD for no reason.

[Ixion]

I absolutely disagree.

I'll never be able to prove it; you can't prove a negative, but I'd bet good money on the fact that there are people walking around out there in one piece who wouldn't be if a trackday hadn't given them the trust in their bike's cornering ability to get safely around an unexpectedly decreasing radius or sudden obstruction or bad surface on the road.

But are they, perhaps, not outnumbered by those who have come off, because a trackday has given them confidence in their bike's cornering ability. Only to find, too late, that roads differ from tracks, in having bumps, oncoming traffic, cars parked on the far side of the blind corner etc.

I agree with Mr Jim2. The conditions at a race track differ so much from those of the public roads that I doubt any useful lessons can be carried from the former to the latter, and the overconfidence engendered will more than offset any technical proficiency acquired.

[Subike]

IMHO
the track teaches you how to go fast
the road teaches you how to say alive

[Trudes]

I don't normally try and get involved in conversations like this, but......
From a relative noob, someone who enjoys trackdays and road riding and is also a complete nanna, I would just like to say that when doing a trackday I ride the track like it's the road, I tend to stick to a line, not exceed about 140/150 on the straights (Manfeild here folks) so anyone who wants to can pass me safely there instead of in the inside of a corner and attack corners like they are corners on the road and not use the whole track, this could be why I will always be in the slow group and get told I'm slow as arse.
I'm there to improve my cornering and braking in an environment where if I fuck it up, I won't get run over by a truck, and also learn about my and my bike's capabilities.

[Mikkel]

I agree with Mr Jim2. The conditions at a race track differ so much from those of the public roads that I doubt any useful lessons can be carried from the former to the latter, and the overconfidence engendered will more than offset any technical proficiency acquired.

Excuse my insolence but I can not help but having to throw a comment in here.

IMHO both sentiments are true - but neither are the whole truth.

Sure, if you go riding on the public road like you can do on the track - and unfortunately some people do exactly that - you are likely to have a big spill sooner or later.

On the other hand - getting a feel for the utmost of your bikes capabilities will leave you with an untapped reserve when you are riding on the road. IF you ride sensibly of course. I'd say - never give 100% on the road unless your life is at stake... Leave some in reserve.

After having been to the track several times I have gotten to the point where I can push my bike to the limit and have become quite good at this knee-down stuff as well.
Mind you - when I ride on the public road under normal circumstances I don't hang off my bike at all. This is due to two reasons:

1. I then know I have a lot in reserve.
2. Most importantly it shifts my focus in a undesirable direction...

Just my 2 cents.

[jrandom]

Yeah, what Mikkel said.

Pros and cons to both sides of the argument.

I don't really mind, to be honest. It's not a subject I can grow particularly exercised over.

Anyone who hasn't done a trackday, I'd really encourage to give it a go, if only because it's about the most fun you'll ever have with your pants on.

And if folk like James Deuce and Ixion have ridden on the track and find that it isn't conducive to safer road riding for them, I respect their opinion.

[James Deuce]

And if folk like James Deuce and Ixion have ridden on the track and find that it isn't conducive to safer road riding for them, I respect their opinion.

Trackdays on an RG250 and RG400, buckets on an RG50 and a KH100 (one race each) Clubmans on a VFR400 with an F3 kit imported from Japan, and also an Rc30. Having said that I did my last trackday in 1991, and my last race in '92.

I've never found track work useful on the road. Bike setup and a totally different mental attitude (get the fuck out of my way, until Shaun Harris or a Cudby or a Latimer goes get the fuck out of way and shoulder charges you into the kitty litter) mean that the bikes felt radically different on the road compared to the track. IMO racers either make calm collected road riders or arrogant chargers, with nothing in between.

[McJim]

I do track days for serious fun and try to use OP (other people's) bikes where possible.

I ride my bike around coz it's a beautiful country we live in.

My bike is too gutless to be worth a fack on a track but is a great wee bike for the real world.

[Usarka]

I've never found track work useful on the road. Bike setup and a totally different mental attitude (get the fuck out of my way, until Shaun Harris or a Cudby or a Latimer goes get the fuck out of way and shoulder charges you into the kitty litter) .

I found most riders on my first track day (moto tt) to have a very considerate attitude.

i am concious of the possibility though that track day training encourages you to push harder on the road, but conversely it gives some skill / confidence if things do go titsup.

but i didnt do it for road training, i did it for an adrenaline fix. i still occasionally do the carpark brakes hitting stint though i havent for a while, thanks for the reminder j2

[James Deuce]

I found most riders on my first track day (moto tt) to have a very considerate attitude.

Back when I were a lad, most trackdays, with the exception of a "school" that Tony McMurdo ran were just bike setup and practice days for "proper" racers, and they didn't like us non-racers getting in the way. They felt themselves considerate if they gave us a decent learn and taught to stay out of the way of people who could ride. They also did not share information with lesser mortals.

Oh, and you're welcome.

I can even drag my own threads off topic.

[jrandom]

Back when I were a lad, most trackdays, with the exception of a "school" that Tony McMurdo ran were just bike setup and practice days for "proper" racers, and they didn't like us non-racers getting in the way. They felt themselves considerate if they gave us a decent learn and taught to stay out of the way of people who could ride. They also did not share information with lesser mortals.

It's really not like that any more, you know.

I don't suppose there's any chance you'll make it up to Taupo on the Zed one of these days for a play on the track with us young 'uns, is there...

[James Deuce]

James Deuce @ Track Day =

James Deuce after putting in one last "quick lap" =

James Deuce after explaining to lovely wife about that ride that turned into a track day =

Audience watching =

Audience for next several months when referring to James Deuce at track day =