Oil questions?

[glice]

I'm sure there are threads on what I'm asking but my computer is being retarded and wont search properly.

whats the difference between oils? I know different grades and synthetic etc but whats the difference between 2 bottles if they are both the same grade and everything but one is near twice the price, is it just the brand name? or is there something I'm missing?

Also what are you ment to do with old oil, I've got a fair bit now and wondering what to do with it. does it cost to get rid of it?

[awayatc]

You google it and you can stay glued to the screen for a week.........
Old oil can be recycled for free at transfer stations and also many service stations/garages....

[CookMySock]

its really hard to rely on manufacturers oil formulations. Some stuff is utter shit, while others will be perfectly fine. You should be fine as long as you match or exceed the API specs, and match (identically) your SAE spec. Don't put higher SAE spec oil in it if its a high revver because you will pinch bearings and rings. Change your oil on time.

I have had once incident where I changed brands and had a massive compatibility problem. The engine missed and farted and wheezed and fumed and smoked!! Fark what a scare, we thought we had blown it. Changed back to the other oil and it settled right down again.. go figure!

In general, just don't buy the cheapest possible.

DB

[glice]

You google it and you can stay glued to the screen for a week.........
Old oil can be recycled for free at transfer stations and also many service stations/garages....

ha yea I had been doing that for a while and figured I could find more out here.
I've asked afew places and they all say they dont do it, I guess I'll just have to keep asking.

its really hard to rely on manufacturers oil formulations. Some stuff is utter shit, while others will be perfectly fine. You should be fine as long as you match or exceed the API specs, and match (identically) your SAE spec. Don't put higher SAE spec oil in it if its a high revver because you will pinch bearings and rings. Change your oil on time.

I have had once incident where I changed brands and had a massive compatibility problem. The engine missed and farted and wheezed and fumed and smoked!! Fark what a scare, we thought we had blown it. Changed back to the other oil and it settled right down again.. go figure!

In general, just don't buy the cheapest possible.

DB

I've matched everything to my bike and do it on time. Its not the cheapest oil and it does the trick, its just Ive seen some really expensive stuff and not sure whats up with it.
that sounds pretty crazy with the oil change, what I'm using now is fine so I think I'll keep with that.
the service interval is 6000km, is it a waist of money to do it earlyer, even if I'm giving it some pretty hard use?

[awayatc]

Maybe have agood long read at this page....
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm
It is american, so not all the prices and brands add up but it should give you some VERY good information to become your own judge..... Good luck

[awayatc]

Quoted from http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm link, in case you have problems accessing it....:

The results of these tests seem to support some of the long-standing theories about oils while casting serious doubt on others. Going by these tests it would seem logical to assume that:

1.The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application.

2.Comparing these figures to viscosity retention for the same oils when used in an automobile (see later text by Prof. Woolum) would indicate that motorcycles are indeed harder on oils than cars.

3.The fastest and most significant drop in the viscosity of petroleum-based oils used in motorcycles occurs during the first 800 miles (or less) of use.
All of these results (1-3) agree with everything the oil companies have been telling us all along. However, the same test data also indicates that:

4.The viscosity of petroleum-based oils, whether designed for auto or motorcycle application, drop at approximately the same rate when used in a motorcycle.

5.There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific oils out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

These last two results (4-5) definitely do not agree with what the motorcycle oil producers have been telling us. In fact the test results not only indicate the two motorcycle oils being outperformed in viscosity retention by the two automotive synthetic products. but even by the relatively inexpensive Castrol GTX, which is a petroleum product. This directly contradicts the advertising claims made by the motorcycle oil producers

opinions are.........
BUT.....

[CookMySock]

[...] its just Ive seen some really expensive stuff and not sure whats up with it.

ok theres a couple of things ;

Most oil is brought to the correct viscosity by using Viscosity Index (VI) improvers. The problem is, these VI improvers are long molecular strands that sit in bunches, and if you stress them heavily they will chop up and you lose viscosity fast. That in itself is not a huge problem (except the oil gets thinner and loses is SAE rating - not a deal breaker) but the thing is the by-products of these VI improvers can be harmful to the engine.

The other thing, particularly in diesel engines, is the ability of the oil to keep suspended particles suspended, so they don't accumulate on important surfaces such rings and valves.

Then there is the ability of the oil to neutralise acids - byproducts of combustion include sulfuric acid - from sulfur in fuel and water in the atmosphere, so the oil must have a high total base to begin with - high TBN.

Summarising, the oil should have little or no VI improvers - the oil is naturally the correct SAE spec and will remain so for its lifetime - doesn't chop down and thin out, resists leaving deposits, offers good corrosion protection, and is designed to neutralise harmful acids for its whole life.

Only the top top echelon of synthetics are capable of doing this (this does not include mobil 1), and usually for double the life of conventional oils. Oh then there is the four-ball wear test scar length in mm - this will absolutely piss over a poor oil.

the service interval is 6000km, is it a waist of money to do it earlyer, even if I'm giving it some pretty hard use?

Pretty much. This interval is set conservatively anyway.

Using a top quality synthetic race oil is only of any real use if you are going to cane the fuck out of it from cold, and then when its hot, cane the fuck out of it until it gets way too hot, then cane the fuck out of it some more, and then after than, cane the fuck out of it some more. Eventually, you will run a bearing, nip a ring, or tuck a piston skirt, usually resulting in a random catastrophic failure that racers know only too well. Super high quality synthetics will mostly prevent these mishaps, but is total overkill for anything except for a race engine.

I used to sell the stuff, but getting anyone to change their oil brand is like trying to change their brand of smokes - it aint gunna happen. It was interesting though. I used it for a while but I won't now.


DB

[kiwi cowboy]

ok theres a couple of things ;

Most oil is brought to the correct viscosity by using Viscosity Index (VI) improvers. The problem is, these VI improvers are long molecular strands that sit in bunches, and if you stress them heavily they will chop up and you lose viscosity fast. That in itself is not a huge problem (except the oil gets thinner and loses is SAE rating - not a deal breaker) but the thing is the by-products of these VI improvers can be harmful to the engine.

The other thing, particularly in diesel engines, is the ability of the oil to keep suspended particles suspended, so they don't accumulate on important surfaces such rings and valves.

Then there is the ability of the oil to neutralise acids - byproducts of combustion include sulfuric acid - from sulfur in fuel and water in the atmosphere, so the oil must have a high total base to begin with - high TBN.

Summarising, the oil should have little or no VI improvers - the oil is naturally the correct SAE spec and will remain so for its lifetime - doesn't chop down and thin out, resists leaving deposits, offers good corrosion protection, and is designed to neutralise harmful acids for its whole life.

Only the top top echelon of synthetics are capable of doing this (this does not include mobil 1), and usually for double the life of conventional oils. Oh then there is the four-ball wear test scar length in mm - this will absolutely piss over a poor oil.

Pretty much. This interval is set conservatively anyway.

Using a top quality synthetic race oil is only of any real use if you are going to cane the fuck out of it from cold, and then when its hot, cane the fuck out of it until it gets way too hot, then cane the fuck out of it some more, and then after than, cane the fuck out of it some more. Eventually, you will run a bearing, nip a ring, or tuck a piston skirt, usually resulting in a random catastrophic failure that racers know only too well. Super high quality synthetics will mostly prevent these mishaps, but is total overkill for anything except for a race engine.

I used to sell the stuff, but getting anyone to change their oil brand is like trying to change their brand of smokes - it aint gunna happen. It was interesting though. I used it for a while but I won't now.


DB

whots wrong with mobil 1

[awayatc]

Summarising, the oil should have little or no VI improvers - the oil is naturally the correct SAE spec and will remain so for its lifetime - doesn't chop down and thin out, resists leaving deposits, offers good corrosion protection, and is designed to neutralise harmful acids for its whole life.

Only the top top echelon of synthetics are capable of doing this (this does not include mobil 1), and usually for double the life of conventional oils. Oh then there is the four-ball wear test scar length in mm - this will absolutely piss over a poor oil.
DB

The 4-ball test is irrelevant and totally misleading. (The balls do not roll. 3 are held static, and the forth is held in a chuck and spun against them, generating small flat scars on the static balls.) Hard-surface point contacts respond well to aggressive chemical anti-wear substances containing active sulphur, phosphorus or chlorine. A ‘hypoid’ gear oil with a sulphur/phosphorus EP antiwear compound which activates at relatively low temperatures gives a very good 4-ball result, so why don’t we use gear oil additive systems in engines? Because, at the temperatures reached in critical areas around the engine (e.g. top piston ring, appr. 280C) the gear type antiwear compounds are corrosive. (A fact known and understood in the automotive and lubricant industries for 60 years.) Chlorinated antiwear additives (much touted by the ‘magic additive’ scam artists) are even worse. They were excluded even from hypoid gear oils in the 1950s. But they give a wonderful 4-ball result!
The 4-ball tester is known in the UK as the ‘Shell-Seta’ apparatus, because it was developed by Shell in the 1930s, and production versions were built by the instrument firm Stanhope-Seta. However, Shell eventually disowned the test because it had no relevance to automotive lubrication. (It is still used for industrial cutting oils.).......

[awayatc]

whots wrong with mobil 1

As far as I know mobil 1 has some of the best oils out there.
The oils with a wide viscosity range is what you want to stay away from. They have many polymers that create the wide range. Once the oil is broken down it will lean towards the lower viscosity.Multigrade oils are generaly manufactured by starting off with a light base oil, 10 weight in the case of a 10w-40, and adding Viscosity Index Improvers, which are synthesized oil molecules as much as 1000 times the length of oil molecules. When cold, these curl up in tight spirals and/or balls, and don't have much affect on the fluid properties of the oil. When heated, however, they begin to uncurl, and have the effect of thickening the oil. When enough are added, our 10 weight base oil will be as thick as a straight grade 40 is at 212 degrees F, which is what 10w-40 means. The trouble is that these long chain molecules are comparatively fragile, and can be rather easily shredded by even a small transmission. The longer, and therefore more effective they are, the more easily they are destroyed, and you will find yourself with a sump full of 8w-17 where your 10w-40 used to be if you aren't careful.

By their nature, synthetic base stocks have a higher viscosity index than natural petroleum already, which is to say that they thin out less with exposure to heat, and do not need as many VII's to behave as a multigrade. A high quality PAO base is often capable of behaving as a 15w-40 or a 20w-50 with no VII's at all, so they are usually less subject to this kind of thing. They can also use a smaller quantity of less fragile VII's to achieve a relatively impressive result, and can be very stable if formulated properly.
.......
Or in short "nothing"..........

Phosphorous deteriorates the catalyst in converters and is therefore restricted to a very small percentage in automotive oils. Phosphorous is also an essential element in one of the best anti-wear agents, ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate), which is a primary component of such over-the-counter engine additives as STP Engine Treatment.

While it is true that slightly increased concentrations of ZDDP are found in some motorcycle oils, it is also true that these concentrations still fall under the governmental limits, otherwise these oils could not be used in the converter-equipped motorcycles .
Also, it should be noted that ZDDP is a "last line of defense"-type additive, generally only coming into play under extremely severe conditions where actual metal-to-metal contact occurs within an engine, something that should never happen under normal operating conditions.

Or: longlevity in engine protection and catalyctic converters don't mix...........

[CookMySock]

As far as I know mobil 1 has some of the best oils out there.

And they do, but there are others that are better, IMO. There is little point using them for your daily runner.

By their nature, synthetic base stocks have a higher viscosity index than natural petroleum already, which is to say that they thin out less with exposure to heat, and do not need as many VII's to behave as a multigrade. A high quality PAO base is often capable of behaving as a 15w-40 or a 20w-50 with no VII's at all, so they are usually less subject to this kind of thing. They can also use a smaller quantity of less fragile VII's to achieve a relatively impressive result, and can be very stable if formulated properly.

exactly, a very good description of it. These no VII oils are what you want for racing, or extended oil changes for a month in the desert.


DB

[glice]

thanks guys thats heaps of help.
-so theres no point in paying $100 for 5L (not that I can afford it anyway)
-only race motors need race oil

I've got pennzoil sae10w-40, mainly because it fits into my price bracket (only just) whats the best and what do you guys use for daily runners?
does it differ between sports and non sports bikes, and if i do a track day should I change it any sooner.

sory about all the questions, but I may aswell use this wealth of knowledge.

[awayatc]

thanks guys thats heaps of help.
-so theres no point in paying $100 for 5L (not that I can afford it anyway)
-only race motors need race oil

I've got pennzoil sae10w-40, mainly because it fits into my price bracket (only just) whats the best and what do you guys use for daily runners?
does it differ between sports and non sports bikes, and if i do a track day should I change it any sooner.

sory about all the questions, but I may aswell use this wealth of knowledge.

I usualy get my hand on 4 liters of mobil1 for quite a reasonable price (somewhere around $50 last time)
And I believe in riding your bike (or car) very very gently until it is properly warmed up....Only then you can trash it if you wish......
Depending on how hard the bikes got trashed wil I change oil as recommended, a bit earlier if dirtbikes got hammered, a bit later if roadbike got mild workouts only...

All synthetic oils outlast mineral oils 2x or even 3x.......

People may crucify me for that last statement, but that's the opinions are like .......... bit again

[The Stranger:Me]

You google it and you can stay glued to the screen for a week.........
Old oil can be recycled for free at transfer stations and also many service stations/garages....

If by recycled you mean used to fire the kiln at the cement works sure.
The Waitakere City council transfer station, being the eco city and all, will take a max of 4 litres. Big help when I have about 100 sitting here. Fortunatley I have here and ecologically friendly earth filtration system set up here.

I pour the oil on the ground, gravity pulls it back to the centre of the earth for future generations it discover and use in their vehicles. Simple effective and everyone wins.
I particularly like that I am providing oil for future generations.

[terbang]

Kills the weeds on my edges too...