Design project

[Alby_Joe]

Madebikeboy...Thats an essay you wrote there haha. Your first post goes off in different areas that are not really related to what my topic was about. You mention the custom bikes from deus (which are awesome machines) and you mentioned the Hossack suspension system which is old and if it was so good, why haven't major manufacturers caught on? I defined the questions loosely as a survey...it is in no way refined or proper.
I am not going to go into detail about the bike I am designing, its frame, suspension, engine, size, etc because then I will get everyone trying to give me design lessons and the point will start wandering, (which is not what Im after). The aim was just to get some ideas out, complaints, general thoughts on bikes and scooters.
Your second post brought up some good issues though.

I agree that it is all a bit one sided towards motorbikes...I'll post the same question on a scooter site to get some more views.

Thanks,
Joe

[Alby_Joe]

Thanks for the luck Shafty....

Scooters are finally getting some rep in this thread haha.

Joe

[scootnz]

I think your original question is flawed - your definition of "scooter" is being interpreted by motorcyclists to include what I call a "moped".

Moped: under 50cc, slow
Scooter: above 50cc (commonly 85, 100, 125, 150, 200, and 250cc)

I see this same shit being pushed all the time. No wonder there aren't many scooterists replying after all this negative feedback from motorcyclists.

Many of these scooters (not mopeds) are more than capable of motorway travel.
Many scooters have far more ability to carry large loads of groceries than motorcycles.
Many of the older scooters are not set up properly! No wonder the handling is perceived as so poor...often the tyres, suspension etc are setup by people who have no idea what they're doing.

Anyway, to answer the question: why a scooter, not a motorcycle?

I went out and bought a 125cc vespa 10 years ago, not knowing anyone who rode any powered 2 wheeler - and taught myself to ride (in Auckland).

I have had several other scooters since, all older (1957, 1959, now 1972) and ridden several others.

They are generally small, easy to handle, can carry lots of stuff, are really fun, attractive (classic scooters...), and when setup right have enough power to do what I need them to do. I have toured on them (Brass Monkey, Cold Kiwi, etc) and also commute in the city on them. I carried a pillion on a 180cc auto around the south island (2000kms) after he lost his licence.

I am interested enough in classic motorcycles to belong to the Wellington Classic Motorcycle Club, and I have a full motorcycle licence, but I'm not particularly interested in owning a motorcycle, although if the opportunity arose I would have a go at riding one.

[FJRider]

I was also thinking of specific feedback about scooters -

* Steering head angle is too severe, making them unstable at high speed.
* Wheelbase is too short, if you've got any power, they wheelstand all over the place
* Not enough ability to carry objects (ever try doing a weekly shop on a scooter?)
* Poor interface, the automatic ones are especially piss poor
* Step through principle works well for women wearing skirts
* Visually, a scooter is less intimidating for women
* Wheels are too small, this causes erratic behaviour, and tramlining
* Fuel economy is commensurate with horsepower
* Most are pig ugly

Severe steering angle gives quicker steering and high speed is over 50 km/h.
Short wheelbase means less space needed to park it.
SOME do have good storage capacity under the seat. MOST don't. Thats what hatchbacks were invented for.
And boys, and lighter. If it falls (blows) over, you can pick it up.
The "original" scooters had big wheels. Erratic behaviour can be blanmed on the rider. (any excuse is better than nothing)
100 plus km/l is hard to ignore (round town)
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or if it does the job... cheaply...WHO CARES !!!

[Swoop]

* Steering head angle is too severe, making them unstable at high speed.
* Wheelbase is too short, if you've got any power, they wheelstand all over the place
* Not enough ability to carry objects (ever try doing a weekly shop on a scooter?)
* Poor interface, the automatic ones are especially piss poor
* Step through principle works well for women wearing skirts
* Visually, a scooter is less intimidating for women
* Wheels are too small, this causes erratic behaviour, and tramlining
* Fuel economy is commensurate with horsepower
* Most are pig ugly

I would also add that they are "un-noticed" on the road. They do not make enough noise to be noticed but 2 smokes at least let others know they are there by their "unique aroma and smoke screen"...


Advantages that I like are the helmet storage spaces that are built in, and the Vespa idea of carrying a spare tyre. Nice.
Looks... Street Magic as a bare minimum. It says "do ya wanna have some fun?".

[Alby_Joe]

the moped vs. scooter thing is a good point. What I believe it comes down to is that people class anything as step-through a scooter and anything that they actually have to lift their leg over a motorbike. Mopeds and scooters both share that same step-through design. People still class the scooters as being slow, no matter what power they have and how much faster they are, because they still have the idea in their head that, step-through = slow. Thats what came to mind anyway.

Hopefully more scooter people will come in to offer thoughts.

[Alby_Joe]

the steering angle on scooters are perfect for their purpose which is commuting, darting in and out of traffic etc... probably best seen in their element in the emerging economies of asia.

[blossomsowner]

[QUOTE=Disco Dan;1549154]



I would not be seen DEAD on a scooter. They are gay.



exactly my thoughts.........i would ride a pedal bike over a scooter anyday and that is not happening anytime soon,,,,,,,,,scooter..be better off walking

[Oakie]

Reason 1) Because the first two wheeled transport I had was bigger than a scooter and I never saw a reason to down-size.

Reason 2) I ride a bike rather than a scooter for the same reason I got married instead of just masturbating for the rest of my life. (sorry scooter owners, no offence meant) EDIT: I'm talking the ability to many things rather than providing a function on just one level.

[Her_C4]

..... but I'm not particularly interested in owning a motorcycle, although if the opportunity arose I would have a go at riding one.

I am pretty sure I could help arrange that for ya' J, just give us a yell sometime

[madbikeboy]

Madebikeboy...Thats an essay you wrote there haha. Your first post goes off in different areas that are not really related to what my topic was about. You mention the custom bikes from deus (which are awesome machines) and you mentioned the Hossack suspension system which is old and if it was so good, why haven't major manufacturers caught on? I defined the questions loosely as a survey...it is in no way refined or proper.
I am not going to go into detail about the bike I am designing, its frame, suspension, engine, size, etc because then I will get everyone trying to give me design lessons and the point will start wandering, (which is not what Im after). The aim was just to get some ideas out, complaints, general thoughts on bikes and scooters.
Your second post brought up some good issues though.

I agree that it is all a bit one sided towards motorbikes...I'll post the same question on a scooter site to get some more views.

Thanks,
Joe

It was fairly clear from your questions that you're heading in the direction of what I gave you some thoughts on - you can listen to all the advice on what's wrong at a high level, or you can your point of view and look at what could be achieved.

The Hossack did catch on, but for a small, and almost unknown brand called BMW. They waited until Norman Hossack's patent ran out, and then they released the DuoLever. It's an excellent idea that provides some benefits over telescopic forces. Look at the Bimota Tesi 3D for another example of similar thinking. Good ideas don't necessarily catch on - if something is too radical for the time it is born into, the masses often don't get it.

[madbikeboy]

the steering angle on scooters are perfect for their purpose which is commuting, darting in and out of traffic etc... probably best seen in their element in the emerging economies of asia.

I've lived in SE Asia, they're certainly cheap, but there are a significant number of fatalities on scooters / step throughs. You tend to find mom and dad, plus a kid or two on a scooter (most families can't afford a car), and when the bike goes wildy out of control, they throw each family member in different directions (seen it for myself). A steep angle is a design flaw, you can relax the angle and still get enough steering speed and provide more stability.

I've raced step throughs on go-kart tracks, they wiggle more than a kid with ADD who just ate a load of sugar and food colouring...

On another point - yes, they're cheap and accessible. They're also incredibly simple - from a design point of view, they last pretty much forever in unbelieveable conditions; I've ridden a scooter in monsoon rain with raindrops the size of pebbles, I'd have parked a road bike under shelter far earlier...

[The Pastor]

I don't ride a scooter because i do not like ass sassauge,

[clint640]

Q1: What is your reason for using a motorcycle over a scooter as your main form of two-wheeled transport?


Thanks,
Joe

'Cos scooters don't land jumps very well.

...& my motorcycle is a more versatile form of transport than a scooter.

Clint

[inlinefour]

Ok, in regards to why people are turned off scooters, we have, so far:

- they look "gay"
- not fast enough for motorway use (assuming you are not including the big 500cc+ scooters or whatever)
- not as good handling
- lack of storage space


All these opinions are great, I have my own, but this "survey" isn't about me, it's about what other people want and see in the vehicles.

It would be interesting to see some more feedback from the scooter riders, I have put the same thread in the scooter section.

Joe

I had the use of the Mrs streetmagic whenever I wanted it and I was allways riding around town as it was more praticle for what I wanted, it got through the traffic like butter on a crumpet. It literally runs on the smell of an oily rag, great for the petrol prices these days. The rego was only $72ish bucks for the year, try doing that with a motorsickle and it pulled stoppies so farking easy, just don't tell the mrs.