NZ Walking Access Bill - It WILL affect motorcycling

[Grahameeboy]

Does this country have a requirement that if 'so many' people tell their MP to vote a certain way, he has to? (whether his party likes it or not)

Oh you mean like when we complain that we know how to be parents so bagg the Anti-Smacking Law because it is an infringment of our rights so we don't need to be told what to do.....

[cooneyr]

Umm...sorry but don't Farmers and Land Owners have rights too. Why should they automatically let the public traipes across their land in 4WD's.

UK is a bit different because they have have historical rights of ways plus off course, unlike NZ there is an abundance of common land with footpath and bridleway access for the public so for eg mountain bikers can use bridleways unlike in NZ where in the main you only have access to private land that is made available for mountain biking, like Woodhill etc.....like there is private land where you can 4WD, Qyad bike etc...so you may have to pay...the Farmer pays for his land...you go to a restaurant and pay for the meal so why not pay to off road

In UK this works reasonably well and if necessary you ask permission from the farmer / land owner.

The land is for walking on and you cannot have walkers and vehicles side by side...bad enough on public highways!!

Sorry, I know I will get bagged but I don't see what the problem is.

I'm not completely up with the play on this new bill but I happen to agree with you if private land is involved. Get permission and all will be sweet or else don't go - the mode of transport doesn't matter.

What annoys me though is when there is a paper road (public land) and farmers have put up Private Property signs in an attempt to keep people out. The farmer has no right to do this and has no more right to the land than the next person. Paper roads are often the most interesting and exciting routes to go adventure riding on.

I just wish that there was an easier way of finding out where a paper road really exists i.e. councils had a list or maps that showed where they are. This would make it easier for everybody involved and help prevent potentially nasty confrontations. If it arises where people abuse the road then go through a formal road stopping process and give everybody a chance to have input and have a fair discussion about ways of managing access.

Cheers R

[Hitcher]

Potential submitters should take time to read the provisions of this proposed legislation before blindly signing up to Fish & Game or four-wheel-driving activist propaganda.

The Bill's intent is about clarifying the current legal muddle around such things as "paper roads", "the Queen's chain" and a whole bunch of other gobbledegook. The Bill's intent is to provide certainty of access. In many cases currently there is nothing but confusion.

Land owners are asking for certainty, as are various recreational users, such as fishermen and four-wheel-drivers. Particularly important is a need to clarify situations where access to public land (such as recreational reserves or National Parks) can only be afforded across privately owned land.

"Paper roads" are one area where there is a high degree of confusion as to what rights apply to them. Access to Stoney Batter on Waiheke Island is a perennial high profile issue where a land owner has a clear view on this matter which is at distinct variance with what recreational users believe is appropriate.

"The Queen's chain", as it currently stands, is another piece of arcane nonsense. A spectacular example of this is the Mararoa River in Southland where the river is in some cases over 1km away from the Queen's chain that was established over 100 years ago.

And also remember that postcard or "me too" submissions carry no more weight that the original submission they attempt to mirror. A submissions process is about quality of thinking, not weight of numbers. It's not a beauty contest.

[Nordy]

submission to the Select Committee and post 2 copies by Wednesday, 21 May, 2008

to late now anyways.

[tri boy]

My main concern with this Bill is that it still has a few issues regarding the land owners ability to close access to the public of Crown owned streams that pass through their properties.
I am regularly in contact with land owners, with regards to "paper road" access, and to fair, most are honest about the tracks conditions and the ability to use them. (I do arm myself with Land infomation 1:50000 scale maps so they can see the tracks I'm talking about).
Some are just plan arrogant though, (try accessing the west coast from Raglan to Pt Waikato). Illegal gates have popped up with the increase of dairy activity.

England is a classic, (sad) case, where land owners charge ridiculous fees for course fisherman to cast a line in what was Crown land.(5000 pound for a weekends fishing is not unheard of).

I'm happy to see things get sorted properly, but NZ citizens should be allowed to politely cross land, open/close gates and get to the fishing spots their grandfathers accessed. Otherwise we become a serf to rich lords. Do we really want that in our country?

[Hitcher]

Without wanting to sound like an apologist for the Bloody Labour Gummint, you'll find that what you're wanting is what the Bill proposes.

[Grahameeboy]

I'm not completely up with the play on this new bill but I happen to agree with you if private land is involved. Get permission and all will be sweet or else don't go - the mode of transport doesn't matter.

What annoys me though is when there is a paper road (public land) and farmers have put up Private Property signs in an attempt to keep people out. The farmer has no right to do this and has no more right to the land than the next person. Paper roads are often the most interesting and exciting routes to go adventure riding on.

I just wish that there was an easier way of finding out where a paper road really exists i.e. councils had a list or maps that showed where they are. This would make it easier for everybody involved and help prevent potentially nasty confrontations. If it arises where people abuse the road then go through a formal road stopping process and give everybody a chance to have input and have a fair discussion about ways of managing access.

Cheers R

Agree with you there is Farmer is doing that...probs if the paper road leads to his private land I guess in which case whilst the farmer has no legal rights, I can kinda understand his actions if it stops people trying to use his land...

[MSTRS:Me]

The name of the bill suggests that there is a move to restrict vehicular access, whilst allowing (increased?) foot traffic. No matter what happens re this bill, only some will be happy with the outcome. It is yet another example of the pollies attempting to legislate commonsense, and since so few have it anymore, failure is a given.

[tri boy]

Thing is, the "paper road" doesn't belong to the farmer. It is designated crown land that is on his property. (can't remember the exact measurement off the road, that is the start of his boundary).
The Stony Batter case was a farce. The land owner just dragged his feet with regards to fencing off his boundary alongside the road that led to the site.
(not saying he was abad land owner, he planted alot of native trees on his property), but he did take an "elitist" approach to the issue.
We do not need that Lord/Peasant approach here. Public domain is just that.
The sooner this issue of recording legal access, and making the roads common knowledge via a website the better. Sadly, I feel the Govt will keep on fuddling with the issue. Therefore landowners will increase using illegal fences and gates to ban genuine public wishes to access our landmarks.
Much more important than smacking a babies bum, or not.

[clint640]

The name of the bill suggests that there is a move to restrict vehicular access, whilst allowing (increased?) foot traffic.

Well kind of, but not quite. The issue is that we already have free walking (& motorcycling, mountainbiking & 4wdriving) access down any paper road. The bill aims to improve public access by replacing these rights with walking access only, & even that may be subject to restrictions, so I'm failing to see the improvement.

I really fail to see the extreme danger of having vehicles & walkers side by side on the kinds of tracks we're talking about here - that's what's legal right now, like on all the rest of NZ's backroads, & there's hardly an epidemic of trampers being run over by speeding 4x4's & motorbikes.

I'm with Triboy & CooneyR on this one, we have to be vigilant on this, there are enough people illegally blocking off paper roads now, often to try & restrict access to public land that they want to have to themselves, without giving the bastards a legal means to do it.

Cheers
Clint

[cooneyr]

......It is yet another example of the pollies attempting to legislate commonsense, and since so few have it anymore......

hear ye hear ye hear ye - this man speakith the truth - if ever I bloody heard it!

Thing is, the "paper road" doesn't belong to the farmer. It is designated crown land that is on his property. (can't remember the exact measurement off the road, that is the start of his boundary).
The Stony Batter case was a farce. The land owner just dragged his feet with regards to fencing off his boundary alongside the road that led to the site.
(not saying he was abad land owner, he planted alot of native trees on his property), but he did take an "elitist" approach to the issue.
We do not need that Lord/Peasant approach here. Public domain is just that.
The sooner this issue of recording legal access, and making the roads common knowledge via a website the better. Sadly, I feel the Govt will keep on fuddling with the issue. Therefore landowners will increase using illegal fences and gates to ban genuine public wishes to access our landmarks.
Much more important than smacking a babies bum, or not.

Most road reserves are a chain wide which is near as damn it to 20m. I too wish that there was a conclusive list of roads (be they paper, gravel or seal) so that we could weed out the "interesting" ones. This would be of huge benefit to all - landowners and "users". I'm slowly putting a few on my website - just now got permission to put another one in south canty up It's a real doosie too.

Cheers R

[Hitcher]

there are enough people illegally blocking off paper roads now, often to try & restrict access to public land that they want to have to themselves, without giving the bastards a legal means to do it.

There's the point. Many "paper roads" have no legal status whatsoever. They may appear on a map, but the land owner on whose property they are drawn, has clear legal title to them. People wanting access have their eyes light up when they spy such things, but land owners believe that people are trespassing when others attempt to use them. Farmers don't want dickhead townies having unfettered access to various parts of their properties, such as lambing paddocks, at certain times of the year, leaving gates open, parading unrestrained dogs and children, etc.

[cooneyr]

There's the point. Many "paper roads" have no legal status whatsoever. They may appear on a map, but the land owner on whose property they are drawn, has clear legal title to them. People wanting access have their eyes light up when they spy such things, but land owners believe that people are trespassing when others attempt to use them. Farmers don't want dickhead townies having unfettered access to various parts of their properties, such as lambing paddocks, at certain times of the year, leaving gates open, parading unrestrained dogs and children, etc.

Good point to note - dont assume that every road on Google Maps/Earth is a legal road. It would appear that there is a lot of history in NZ i.e. road reserves were created but are now revoked but are still on the maps/in the database.

Still, I wish that LINZ would tidy up their database cause there is a lot of temptation out there. There are Summit Road from Gebbies Pass east, Kaituna Pass Road, Mt Herbert Road Peak and Old Port Levey Road just to name a few.

Anybody know the Official way of confirming the status of the "roads". I guess it involves talking to LINZ?

Cheers R

[swbarnett]

, but NZ citizens should be allowed to politely cross land, open/close gates and get to the fishing spots their grandfathers accessed.

Sounds like customary rights to me. Maybe we should push for a tribunal and claim compensation.

(p/t)

[Hitcher]

Anybody know the Official way of confirming the status of the "roads". I guess it involves talking to LINZ?

Not that simple. LINZ, Transit and local authorities all maintain various forms of incomplete references.

The best option is generally to ask permission to the land owner concerned. Most are reasonable folk and are usually positively disposed to reasonable requests.