Countersteering, huh?

[Dakara]

Some more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Countersteering is the name given to the counter-intuitive technique used by cyclists and motorcyclists to turn corners. It is the only way a rider can cause the lean that a single-track vehicle must have in order to negotiate a turn successfully....

No hands

This is how countersteering works when riding no-hands. In order to turn left, a rider applies a momentary torque, either at the seat via the legs or in the torso that causes the bike itself to lean to the right. The combined center of mass of the bike and rider is only lowered, of course. However, if the front of the bike is free to swivel about its steering axis, the lean to the right will cause it to steer to the right by some combination of gyroscopic precession, ground reaction forces, gravitational force on an off-axis center of mass, or simply the inertia of an off-axis center of mass, depending on the exact geometry and mass distribution of the particular bike, and the amount of torque and the speed at which it is applied.[1][4]

This countersteering to the right causes the ground contact to move to the right of the center of mass, as the bike moves forward, thus generating a leftward lean. Finally the front end steers to the left and the bike enters the left turn. The amount of leftward steering necessary to balance the leftward lean appropriate for the forward speed and radius of the turn is controlled by the torque generated by the rider, again either at the seat or in the torso.

To straighten back out of the turn, the rider simply reverses the procedure for entering it: cause the bike to lean farther to the left; this causes it to steer farther to the left which moves the wheel contact patches farther to the left, eventually reducing the leftward lean and exiting the turn.

The reason this no-hands steering is less effective on heavy bikes, such as motorcycles, is that the rider weighs so much less than the bike that leaning the torso with respect to the bike does not cause the bike to lean far enough to generate anything but the shallowest turns. Riders may be able to keep a bike centered in a lane and negotiate shallow highway turns, but not much else.

[marty]

[google] gyroscopic procession [/google]

as the bottom of your 'gyroscope' is fixed on the ground, all of the movement goes to the top of the tyre.

[CookMySock]

And by the way don't try this on the road at 80kph. Try an empty car park at about 30-40kph and be ready for the bike to drop quickly.

uh, that is the reason why I suggested at 80k. It's fine for an experienced rider to manage that quick drop, but its dangerous and unsettling for a newb. At 80k in a straight line, the motion is docile, predictable, controllable, and non-threatening. At 30-40k its sudden, peaky, and intimidating.

Just trying to help.

DB

[CookMySock]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Y'see, earlier today, I was riding down a not-very-steep hill in top gear with both hands off the bars and on my hips, steering the bike around a corner and weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body. Obviously, I was hallucinating.

Don't confuse the newbs !! Theres no way you want them to be trying that out.

DB

[CB ARGH]

Lol... I'd love to do that!

Used to do the no handers/no brainers on the old dirt bike... Bit of fun til you hit a tree stump

[madandy]

Gahh! A countersteering thread!

Bring on the Luddites!

You called?

I watched some WSBK highlights the other day...I'm sure I saw a rider standing up on the pegs with both hands in the air as he rounded some bends

I also rode some particularly twisty roads (like hairpins) last weekend and while following some cars at slow speed I was most deffinately NOT countersteering.
As soon as the pace quickend though the natural instinct to turn towards embankments and steep cliffs in order to avoid them took over once more and all was right with my little world

[vifferman]

Gahh! A countersteering thread!

Bring on the Luddites!

Duh... you whishled, mashster?

There's no such thing as countersteering. Bikes are held upright, are steered and propelled by BlackVoodooMagic.
Proof?
There's no proof - it's outside the realms of science.

But (however!) why else do you think dogs bark at bikes when they ride past? And (to a lesser extent) bicycles. Although they're in possession of only minor voodoo to keep them upright.

[slimjim]

Lol... I'd love to do that!

Used to do the no handers/no brainers on the old dirt bike... Bit of fun til you hit a tree stump

Fuck Is He Really..... ONLY ELEVEN ?

[Ryan432]

Iis it a thing that you just do without realising perhaps? I honestly don't know

yup it happens without you realising it unless you really think about it, when you come up to a corner (lets say a left hander) you lean your body to the left, when you do this you put more weight on the left side of the bar, turning the wheel right, this tips the bike in and away you go. This is why "looking where you want to go" helps when cornering because you tend to naturally lean in the direction you look (this is unrelated to target fixation which is different). This also explains the ergonomics of a sportsbike, by leaning you forward more you have more weight on the handle bars which allows you to come in and out of corners much quicker (there are other reasons to but that would be going off topic).

in short, unless you really concentrate you dont realise you are turning the bars right.

[mstriumph]

...............



............. weaving to and fro as desired by pushing on the pegs and tilting my upper body.

Obviously, I was hallucinating.

s'funny - i've hallucinated like that, too ..........


must be the mushrooms

[nosebleed]

...a picture being worth a 1000 words and all that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8IdTq3_3WI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzB5...eature=related

[quickbuck]

Countersteering is something that we teach at the Superbike school. ......
I hope this helps.

Superbike School?
NO BS Bike?? Sounds like Keith Code.

Did you work for him, or borrow the idea?

Any case, yep, the only way to turn a motorcycle at "speed" is to countersteer. Around the car park it is steer in the direction you want to go, and keep your eyes up!
In fact, always keep your eyes where you want to go.
Pushbikes do countersteer to turn too... Just use less force.
(see photo)

The weighty issue...
Well, for me placing all my weight on the peg (outside) allows me to shift my weight to the inside of the corner and this doesn't turn the bike.
BUT it shifts the centre of gravity of the bike, and thus you don't have to have it cranked over as far to round a corner.
This means you don't grind away pegs and other parts on older bikes....

[Taz]

Yep if your'e riding your bike and going around corners you are counter steering. No science no practise it just happens.

[Blackshear]

Yeah man, before I got my giffer, I read that in the road code book and thought, what they hell are they smoking?
Obviously, I ate my words and some. A far more efficient way to turn at speed.

And yes, the magical speed number. Thought I'd give it a go turning into a car park in the mall, good thing my front forks aren't TOO rooted to soak up the panic braking

[quickbuck]

Remember the lower the speed, the LESS physical effort is required to turn the bars. May be able to turn them further, but it doesn't take much.
This is due to the big Gyro you are trying to make change direction.
Double the speed, 4 times the force... or there abouts. I just made that up, but I'm sure it is a square relationship.