Singh family complaining about the police

[tgb_novice]

I fully agree with you I would most probably complain as well but the thing that gets me about this case is that fact that its made out like the cops are at fault for him being shot.


As a society we as Foreigners and locals should not tolerate behaviour like this. Its not just the cops job to enforce a safe enviroment for us all its every individuals job to make sure that we dont tolerate things like this and get it sorted out.

Im not saying we should go out and be vigilanties but rather than getting pissed of with the cops and making out its there fault lets help the cops and get these bastard and remove them for our society.

I don't think I read a complaint about them blaming the cops for the shooting ? The thing that I read about was the response of the police not being up to to the expectation ?

[enigma51]

I don't think I read a complaint about them blaming the cops for the shooting ? The thing that I read about was the response of the police not being up to to the expectation ?

You should have seen them on the news the other night.

[tgb_novice]

Which channel ? TV1 or 3 ?

[enigma51]

TV3

Lets just say i got a bit pissed off.
He's comments was translated so could have been a case of being lost in translation but still got me pissed off.

[terbang]

Its called being a Human. I work in an extremely proceduralised environment and yet we still have to make human judgments on all situations. You cannot write a procedure for every possible scenario. If you could then you could just incorporate that into some software and let a machine do the work. Maye in the future but not just yet, so we need to train (important word there ´train´) our people to exercise sound judgment along with following SOP´s. With SOP´s being the foundation or guideline along with human competence to finaly meet a satisfactory solution. Remember if you always blindly err on the safe side, then you are always in error and when you are required to do things right, then you are out of your comfort zone. And screw ups can happen.
Maybe there was, and I hope so, an experienced and well trained head there, after evaluating all factors (including SOP), making the call to delay the medical people. Then fair enough. But if it was a blind following of an SOP whilst a guy died with criminals long gone, then a review needs to be taken.

[Qkchk:Me]

"Police not human, says shot man's mate" - NZ Herald

[HenryDorsetCase]

"Police not human, says shot man's mate" - NZ Herald

Are they Robocops or Terminators?

Honestly, is that sort of gutter journalism/tabloid trash headline helping ANYONE?

I sure as hell won't be either following that link or buying their red-fed scandal rag. It would just encourage them. bastards

[HenryDorsetCase]

Its called being a Human. I work in an extremely proceduralised environment and yet we still have to make human judgments on all situations. You cannot write a procedure for every possible scenario. If you could then you could just incorporate that into some software and let a machine do the work. Maye in the future but not just yet, so we need to train (important word there ´train´) our people to exercise sound judgment along with following SOP´s. With SOP´s being the foundation or guideline along with human competence to finaly meet a satisfactory solution. Remember if you always blindly err on the safe side, then you are always in error and when you are required to do things right, then you are out of your comfort zone. And screw ups can happen.
Maybe there was, and I hope so, an experienced and well trained head there, after evaluating all factors (including SOP), making the call to delay the medical people. Then fair enough. But if it was a blind following of an SOP whilst a guy died with criminals long gone, then a review needs to be taken.

if you can just decide not to follow it, then its not a "Standard operating protocol" is it?

[tgb_novice]

TV3

Lets just say i got a bit pissed off.
He's comments was translated so could have been a case of being lost in translation but still got me pissed off.

"Police not human, says shot man's mate" - NZ Herald

I cant comment on the TV3 news as I did not see that ? But in the link to the herald IMO they are referring to the response time of the police not that they were the cause of the shooting .

[Qkchk:Me]

I sure as hell won't be either following that link or buying their red-fed scandal rag. It would just encourage them. bastards

Anything to get the general public to buy their paper. We had a similar brush with the media over that guy who was dumped into the back of one of our rubbish trucks. Amazing how well the media turn the story around to increase sales.

[Maki]

At the very least the people who were with him while he was dieing on the floor of that liquor store should have been told the truth, and not lied to and told that the ambulance "was just one minute away".

His chances of survival would have been a lot greater if they had just driven him off to the hospital themselves, instead of waiting for the ambulance.

The government are responsible for providing this service, police and response to 111 calls. They failed, they should admit it and take responsibility. That means identifying what went wrong, preventing it from happening again, and taking care of the widow and her three children.

Will they take responsibility? Not a chance, it's election year you know...

[terbang]

if you can just decide not to follow it, then its not a "Standard operating protocol" is it?

Not that simple.
There is a procedure and there is a practise. Under most scenarios the procedure and the practise are the same. Any variance between the procedure and the practise (you can call it a ´Delta´) is likely to be the result of lack of understanding of the SOP (more training req), a hazardous attitude (corrective training required) or the procedure just doesn´t fit the situation. In the latter case it is well trained and qualified personnel that will use a ´delta´ to a satisfactory outcome while also providing valuable feedback to develop the system.

[Ixion]

WRONG it was 20 minutes, and we never refuse to go in, when asked by police.


Cant speak for comms, but if the Singhs make an official complaint the tapes will be reviewed and appropriate action taken if necassary.


Thats just silly, I'm sure if it was your family you would be phoning the cops and us pretty quick.

And that is just offensive to the years of hard work, study, training and bullshit I go through to help people in need.

In matters of life and death, the only thing that counts is results . The result for Mr Singh is that he's dead. Doesn't get worse than that.

Would he have been better off in a taxi (or, practically, his family taking him to hospital by car)?

Published times show the 11 call for an ambulance at 9:07. Ambulance finally tok him off at 9:52. Another 15 minutes to Middlemore, that's an hour.

He was walking around in the early stages (bleeding internally), so getting him into a car would not have been a problem. 20 minutes max manurewa to Middlemore. So, 20 minutes versus an hour. I know which I'd choose for myself.

But he didn't have the chance to choose, because comms didn't tell those with him the truth. They knew the ambulance was laagerd up round the corner. But they kept telling the callers that it would be "any minute". If they'd known the reality, that it would be an hour maybe they'd have taken their own initiative, maybe not. Their call. But the lies meant they never were in a position to assess the situation. If it were me, I'd be as mad as a very mad thing. Not at the delay, but at the lies. Yeah, I know, don't tell me, lying to the public is probably part of the "procedures".

Sweet, so next time me and my partner bundle a 8/10ths dead woman in our car and drive her to the hospital, him keeping her alive on the way. This because we just couldn't wait for an ambulance, not because they were taking to long, but because we guininely believed she would be dead other wise. Who knows I wonder if one day she will thank us? I think not.
IXION you are a COCK and all you other Police haters please think twice before calling us,if we provide such a bad service.

And I can remember when such a thing would have been a normal expectation. In fact the first time I ever travelled at 100mph was on such an emergency dash (my father was driving, not me).

Back in the day, when there was an emergency , people realised that it was down to them to deal with it . So, they sorted it, whatever it was. Now we all have cell phones and people call the emergency services and sit back and wait.

Over a longish life I've never had any occasion where the police were any help to me. Called them a few times when I needed help, never to any avail, had more occasions when I could have used some help, but didn't bother because I knew it would be pointless.So, I sorted it myself.

The notion that the police are there to help people is one of those myths we tell children, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. It's bollocks. The police are an enforcement force , not Santa's Little Helpers. Their job is to arrest people and lock them up, or give them tickets. Helping people doesn't come into it. If they can't arrest you or give you a ticket, they won't be interested in you . And a wise man will deem that the less he has to do with them the better.

I shouldn't think for a moment that helping Mr Singh crossed the mind of the Cop-In-Charge. There was no place for him in the procedures.

The zambucks and trumpingtons are more into helping people, but, as this instance shows, you can't rely on them. End of the day, it's still down to you. Call them in if possible, they have better resources: but if they don't front, it's still down to you to sort it.

if you can just decide not to follow it, then its not a "Standard operating protocol" is it?

What you DON'T know is whether the people who shot the guy are in the area just begging for "Suicide by cop". In the immortal words of Dennis Hopper in Speed "What do you do?"

A common misapprehension. I worked as QA Manager in a very SOP intensive industry. A SOP is a Standard Operating Procedure. It does not remove the ability of a person with appropriate authority to deviate from it if circumstances require. That's why it is called "Standard". The requirement is that the person so doing should know what the standard procedure is, and have a logical and thought through reason why deviation is neccessary.

And "what do you do"? You demonstrate why you are a field commander. By applying your judgement and discretion. What is the point of having a senior officer present if all he is going to do is play a mindless automaton reading a SOP ?

EDIT: In fairness it should be noted that about 10 minutes of the ambo time was maybe spent stabilising Mr Singh.

[enigma51]

That means identifying what went wrong, preventing it from happening again, and taking care of the widow and her three children.

So you saying the tax payers should now pay for the familys well being?


RIIIIIIGHT

How about they make the guy who shot him there slave for life .....that sounds like justice to me

[spudchucka]

Thats why all police vehicles and all police personnel need to be armed all the time. I don't know why we as a society are such pussies about it.

When the country decides that good parents can't use any form of physical force to discipline their children why would that same society accept armed police patrolling their streets? New Zealand may have been a utopia once but not any more, except in the minds of the flowery freaks that make the rules.