Control tyre for NZSBK

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

control tyre in a small market would be a hard thing to do, but it would have its advantages,

scotty, what advantages do you think control tyres would give a race class here in NZ?

[The Stranger:Me]

Keeping the engines much closer to stock with the allowance of a race exhaust system and a tunable ECU would far and away be the best way of reducing costs. Everything else should be left well alone for very solid reasons, including rider safety.

Yet another way to reduce cost would be to keep stock suspension.

[scott411]

scotty, what advantages do you think control tyres would give a race class here in NZ?

the more i think about it the less i can come up with, origanally i thought that you could spec a harder tyre that would last longer, but this would have other negitive affects as well

maybe spreading the cost over a bit better, although that would hurt some of the top runners, but help the lower guys or up and comers that do not have the better tyre deals,

i voted no by the way, as the logistics are way to hard for limited gains if any,

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

"The real discussion here though is "If" these types of changes were made would it actually bring more people into the sport ?",Glen W

I think it would. Initial outlay of machine cost is ultimately the deal maker or breaker. This is when the major lump sum investments are made into buying a bike and the aftermarket equipment (as constrained by regulations) neccessary to make the bike a winner (after all, no one wants to ride for 2nd place). This is the time where money is begged, borrowed or stolen to get a bike ready for the season. Reducing set up costs (ie, full system, cams, headwork, dynotime) may reduce this build up cost considerabley and make the class a more attractive prospect.

This as Glen mentions represents approx. 1/3 of total seasons costs. if this stage of costing is reduced by 5-10k then these savings can be spread accross the rest of the season and will contribute merrily to tyres, fuel and accomodation and would im sure, be greatfully welcomed.

in regards to dumbing down a class, please explain how reducing barriers to entry to our superbike class and increasing the participation rate is gona be bad for motorcycle racing in NZ, Mr Taylor?

[Robert Taylor]

I think it would. Initial outlay of machine cost is ultimately the deal maker or breaker. This is when the major lump sum investments are made into buying a bike and the aftermarket equipment (as constrained by regulations) neccessary to make the bike a winner (after all, no one wants to ride for 2nd place). This is the time where money is begged, borrowed or stolen to get a bike ready for the season. Reducing set up costs (ie, full system, cams, headwork, dynotime) may reduce this build up cost considerabley and make the class a more attractive prospect.

This as Glen mentions represents approx. 1/3 of total seasons costs. if this stage of costing is reduced by 5-10k then these savings can be spread accross the rest of the season and will contribute merrily to tyres, fuel and accomodation and would im sure, be greatfully welcomed.

in regards to dumbing down a class, please explain how reducing barriers to entry to our superbike class and increasing the participation rate is gona be bad for motorcycle racing in NZ, Mr Taylor?

I think what is forgotten is that we already have a control class that is growing i.e. Pro Twins. This class still provides exciting racing.
There is room to move a little with the two premier ( elite if you like ) classes as I suggested, to reduce costs. Race exhausts and aftermarket ECUs only. Tyre regulations as they are because at least it gives every tyre distributor a chance in what is a very small and fragmented market. Just about EVERY sport in NZ and other countries is also a business and that in turn means many of those businesses put money back into the sport. I dont knock business like I fear too many of our countrymen do, I embrace it. As long as it carries people along with it.
Those who advocate a return to stock suspension for the elite classes are frankly ( and unapologetically ) ''deficient in coalface knowledge and experience''. A leading figure in MNZ and only 1 out of 4 of the major distributors wish such a return but that is because they have a very very scant understanding of the realities. Thankfully the 3 main distributors ( who collectively put a LOT of money into NZ road racing ) and people within MNZ who have thoroughly done their homework are fully in control of the facts.
Control classes overseas that run stock suspension ( such as R6 cup in Germany ) are fraught with issues, including lots of crashing. Imagine being a 90 kg rider turning up at Teretonga with a stock R6 and burning up the tyres in short order through the sweeper.
Several years ago aftermarket fork kits were banned for 600 and 1000 class bikes, I had no objection to it then as I saw that it was a means of controlling cost. But the rules must remain to be able to rekit the internals so as not to disadvantage brands ( such as currently Kawasakis ZX6R ) that have sealed for life non servicable cartridges. And not to also disadvantage very lightweight or heavyweight riders that are challenged by hydraulic and spring control calibration that does no suit them.
Already there has been much correspondence on this subject. I personally submitted a letter to industry insiders researching the facts and this has now been published on '' Bike Rider '' magazines website www.brm.co.nz . I respectfully suggest that anyone interested should read it.

[k14]

Before I say this I actually voted yes, but in retrospect I may have been a bit premature.

I can't see any reason why we would. There are plenty of other things that could be tweaked to get the field closer than a control tyre. If there was a control tyre bought in I think the same guys would still be winning. In 600's the current tyre rule is totally sufficient, 2 rears and 1 front is totally acceptable for most guys, its just part of the game.

Please correct me if I am wrong but the main cause of a spread field is skill. We only have 2 or 3 guys that are skilled enough (in riding and setup) to run at the pointy end of the superbike and 600 field. There were only a dozen or so guys running in superbike last year and I think to keep it open as a full superbike class let them run whatever they want. There are more gains to make in other areas before something like this is bought in.

The two major bike classes where a control tyre rule was bought in have been WSBK and BSB. In both of these classes there has been the factory teams having very good support from michelin, dunlop et al which was disadvantaging the privateer's. Maybe there are a few tyres that the top guys in superbikes have that are "special" but it is far and away from giving them a big advantage.

First get the grids full, then there may be a chance of control tyre.

[R1madness]

Well put Robert.
I am not demonising anyone for spending money on their racing. I love it. All i am trying to do is see how we can make it more compedative for all. The fast guys will remain fast its not just their bikes that make them that way, but how can we get more riders mixing it in the midfield and closing the gaps? Thats what its all about. As we see the fields depleting due to the fast guys retiring one by one it will be up to the current mid field runners to be the fast guys of the future. But if they leave the sport early due to cost or the feeling they cant compete due to lack of industry support what will we be left with in the future?

[CHOPPA]

I heard a rumor at the track yesterday, that Pirelli NZ had sold out their wets? I'm not sure if that was correct or not, but it has happen to me at least one time a normal sc1 can't be delivered.
It seems importers have a hard time to supply the demand as it is?

Yeah man was in there factory and had to see it first had haha The reason they are a tad short is they want to do a really big order and have as fresh as possible tyres for the nationals....

Good to meet ya on the weekend, sorry i couldnt really help out with wets but i have heaps of sets at home here all in decent condition cheap as

[Robert Taylor]

Before I say this I actually voted yes, but in retrospect I may have been a bit premature.

I can't see any reason why we would. There are plenty of other things that could be tweaked to get the field closer than a control tyre. If there was a control tyre bought in I think the same guys would still be winning. In 600's the current tyre rule is totally sufficient, 2 rears and 1 front is totally acceptable for most guys, its just part of the game.

Please correct me if I am wrong but the main cause of a spread field is skill. We only have 2 or 3 guys that are skilled enough (in riding and setup) to run at the pointy end of the superbike and 600 field. There were only a dozen or so guys running in superbike last year and I think to keep it open as a full superbike class let them run whatever they want. There are more gains to make in other areas before something like this is bought in.

The two major bike classes where a control tyre rule was bought in have been WSBK and BSB. In both of these classes there has been the factory teams having very good support from michelin, dunlop et al which was disadvantaging the privateer's. Maybe there are a few tyres that the top guys in superbikes have that are "special" but it is far and away from giving them a big advantage.

First get the grids full, then there may be a chance of control tyre.

The very top teams also have contracted suspension engineers ( in fact predominantly my good Swedish friends ) whose job it is to get the very best out of the control tyres they have to run. What is often missed by those that propose ''stock suspension'' rules is that there is a very close inter-relation between tyres and suspension / geometry calibration. OEM suspension will screw tyres very very quickly, fact.

[roogazza]

I can't see any reason why we would. There are plenty of other things that could be tweaked to get the field closer than a control tyre.

Please correct me if I am wrong but the main cause of a spread field is skill. We only have 2 or 3 guys that are skilled enough (in riding and setup) to run at the pointy end of the superbike and 600 field.

First get the grids full, then there may be a chance of control tyre.

Totally agree K14, everyone wanting to run before they can walk ! Gaz.

[svs]

i voted no. agree with rt and k14.

but there are a few cases when it will work. That is when a tyre supplier is a major sponsor of the event and the control tyre is supplied at a discounted cost. The prod 400 class back in scotland back in the day had this arrangement. (control tyre and control exhaust). but these tyres were supplied to the racers at a well discounted rate and it made sense for all to get involved rather than just a the few at the pointy end who could get the decent sponsorship deals.

In NZ I don't think any one particular importer would be willing to sponsor a class to that extent - the rest of the market probably wouldn't support the investment required. Ask yourself - if say dunlop or pirelli sponsored the NZSBK series and provided control tyres, would you be inclined to by that brand for tyres for your road bike? if not, then what's in it for the distributor?

as for not being able to get the tyres you want - well we are a small isolated country and it does take significant time for containers to get here. Obviously pirelli can't predict the future and although they will estimate the stock they require, they don't want to fill up a warehouse with unsellable tyres. If you want to ensure your own tyre supply a bit of planning is required. Order and pay for your tyres for the nationals now. you'll be alright.

[slowpoke]

... everyone wanting to run before they can walk ! Gaz.

Yup. I think a lot of people assume that the "factory" (as close as we have) guys are fast because of the support they get.....when it's more the other way 'round: they have the support because they are fast.

There doesn't seem to be a shortage of riders at the Winter Series level, but this doesn't seem to transfer into the National Series. Given that most 600 riders cross enter into Superbike to double their racing time the running costs wouldn't appear to be too unreasonable.

But this is a problem in itself; you are effectively penalised for running a Superbike by only getting half the racing you would on a 600. By "rewarding" people for staying in the lower classes we are limiting their development and thus their ability to challenge the established stars. The Premier class needs to be something that people aspire to, whereas at the moment they actually avoid it 'cos they only get half the track time. Hence there are only a handful of genuine Superbikes in the Superbike field and few people learn the skills necesary to challenge Stroud, Shirriffs, Bugden and Co.

This is a bigger issue than a small reduction in the price of tyres.

[CHOPPA]

It would be good if there was a rule like only 3 sets of tyres for the whole weekend

For nationals i reakon ill need prob 5 sets a week (ill have maybe 2) so thats $10k just for tyres thats not including wets...

[svs]

well there's already the rule that you have to run the same front for both races in SP600.

last year i would do the practice on the tyres i finished the previous meeting, then put on new tyres for qualifying and then change rear between r1 and r2.

this gave me 1 front and 2 rears per weekend, but realistically that wasn't really enough as the tyres were pretty worn by that time and i wished i could have afforded more. esp at Levels when the front got hammered.

still some people were going through a couple of sets midweek, then practice and then the races - it soon ads up - That's why good suspension really helps to save you money.

[quallman1234]

I wouldn't imagine that tyre's are the main deciding factor's in the NZSBK at the moment.
Therefore i wouldn't think that it would make the field tighter.
More the suspension and engine mod's gone into the bike's seem, to be the deciding factor and of course the rider.

The advantage of having a Control Tyre with the NZSBK, is the fact that the tyre manufacture chosen, might actually pay some interest in the NZSBK, considering the amount of tyre's needed.