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Thread: Police ignore High Court judge.

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    So the $ fines for "speeding" offences are being reduced and demerits added? I would have thought I would have noticed the news article about that.

    Hell no... too many willing donators to the Helen fund for that to happen...

    So are you implying that by driving at some mandated lesser speed than what I and others are advocating we will be less invisible?

    No... but do you really want to drive faster when there are plenty out there who can't drive for shit, but they have al icence that says they can? These same ones who simply say, "I didn't see you...???"

    The last paragraph quoted above tells me that you know what the problem is - "crap drivers". It doesn't matter the speed. A crap driver is a crap driver and is more likely to cause mayhem whether they are travelling at the legal limit or not.

    Yes, but it is worse when at speed....

    I have never seen any statistics analysed that showed speed to be a major contributor to crashes, unless the analysis was done by the LTSA or similar with a politically inspired barrow to push. Said analysis was typically seriously flawed, with the desired result. There is no doubt and no argument that in the event of a crash that speed is a major factor in the seriousness. What is always conveniantly ignored in statistical analysis of crash data over the years versus any causes of trends, is that there have been major road works on the main highways. Whole sections of difficult roads have been by-passed, median barriers such as cheese cutters have been installed, the age of the vehicle fleet has reduced with all sorts of safety improvements, all of which has contributed to a decline in the worst statistics. I wonder though if the actual number of crashes per vehicle distance travelled has decreased which to me is a true indicator of whether the "CAUSE" of the crashes is being addressed. I think not.
    Stats can be manipulated apparently... depends on what one wants to see. They are right if you like what you see but terribly wrong if it is not. Yep, speed certainly is a major factor in the seriousness of a crash. Not a lot of brain splatter to pick up in a headon at 100k. Different when faster......

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkH View Post
    I was sitting in the passenger seat beside my mate, you can believe my account, or not - whatever.

    Doesn't matter what I believe, I wasn't there.....

    T-intersection - we can turn left or right. Approach intersection in the left lane, indicating to turn left, my mate slows down to almost a stop. The only traffic that we could possibly have to give way to is the traffic driving straight through from the right - at the slow speed we are doing it is clear that the road is empty, no cars or bikes coming. My mate proceeds through the intersection and a police officer pulls us over and explains that we did not completely stop at the stop sign. There was no suggestion of anything dangerous, only the technicality of the regulations which say you must come to a complete stop.

    Not just the regulations, it is also in the road code. Everyone else stops, why couldn't he?

    You are familiar with why a stop sign is in a particular place? There would have been a large number of crashes, including fatals, at that intersection, because people "thought" the way was clear, when it actually wasn't. Stopping gives one the chance to have a proper "look" - something many punters do not do at intersections. Hence the stop sign, which means stop, apparently.


    Could you really be trying to suggest that you are dubious that a cop might be a jerk and try ticketing someone that is driving safely, but infringes on a small technicality? Are you happy to believe that jerks occur in all walks of life, except in the police force?
    Nothing technical in stopping. You did, or you didn't. Simple.

    I know there are jerks in the Police - Your mate got a ticket because he didn't stop at a stop sign. Get over it. He got unlucky with the cop at the time. Not all would bother with that scenario, but most would stop to check licence, WOF, rego and alcohol, because why else would one not stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Preload View Post
    Or perhaps the "would lose too many votes" basket...
    Hahahahaha.. On to it.... But if it was an all party concience vote....

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    because why else would one not stop?
    How about because there were no vehicles to give way to and it was safe to proceed through the intersection? Like I said in my original post - my friend slowed down to less than 5kph (it may have been somewhere around 2kph, he almost did completely stop).

    I am well aware that the rules state that the car must come to a complete stop - but in this case obeying the rules would only be done for the sake of obeying the rules, not for any safety reasons (I am not a fan of being so busy following the rules that I have no time for common sense). I would think that a cop would ignore someone that slowed down to almost stopped for the same reason that a cop would ignore a car travelling at 103kph in a 100 zone (either way is infringing on the rules - but you know, a little leeway helps to not piss off the motorists that the cops prefer to be on their side). My friend remained calm (unusual for him) and polite at all times and I was very surprised when the cop pulled out his ticket book to write up the offence.

    Why some cops choose to act in such a way that the general public gets the impression that they are either trying to fill a quota or are just arseholes is a big mystery to me. Why can't all cops try to act fair and decent at all times?

    To be honest I am also less than impressed with your attitude - you seem to suggest that if someone doesn't stop at a stop sign then they deserve a ticket, maybe even if they slow down to 1kph and drive carefully and safely through the empty intersection. I believe the term for that sort of person is 'pedantic arsehole'. Of course someone that drives through a stop sign at a higher, obviously dangerous speed deserves to be ticketed - but someone driving safely, but not technically coming to a complete stop is not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Get over it.
    What are you on about? I am not upset over this - I wasn't even the driver, there is nothing for me to get over. I simply provided an example of where a cop was being a pedantic dick and pulled over someone that was driving very safely (actually a little unusual for my mate). Can't I give an opinion on a forum without someone thinking that I am angry about some minor matter that happened to a friend several years ago? Maybe you need to get over yourself Patrick!
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    because why else would one not stop?
    Maybe because it was not necessary to do so in order to safely proceed through the intersection? Is not the rule in place in the name of "safety"?

    If you're still safe then you've fulfilled your obligation under the spirit of the law.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

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  4. #94
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    It's not the spirit of the law, or even the 'vibe', it's the law. If you haven't stopped you haven't fufilled your obligation to stop. If the sign said "STOP - but if you can move forward safely then go ahead" it'd be a different story.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_TG View Post
    It's not the spirit of the law, or even the 'vibe', it's the law. If you haven't stopped you haven't fufilled your obligation to stop. If the sign said "STOP - but if you can move forward safely then go ahead" it'd be a different story.
    I wasn't trying to argue what the law says. What I was trying to get at is that within any fair and just society the spirit or principle behind the law must be taken into account before a ticket is dished out. A society that is bound completely by the letter of the law is ruled by an institution that has lost all it's humanity.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkH View Post
    How about because there were no vehicles to give way to and it was safe to proceed through the intersection? Like I said in my original post - my friend slowed down to less than 5kph (it may have been somewhere around 2kph, he almost did completely stop).

    I merely ask, why didn't he then? Re read my post on why stop signs are there. They are there for a reason, as I outlined. Too many people thought the way was clear so it was OK to go, when it wasn't. Maybe it was all good in your friends case, but how is it so many before him got it so wrong, so that a stop sign had to be put into place..???

    I am well aware that the rules state that the car must come to a complete stop - but in this case obeying the rules would only be done for the sake of obeying the rules, not for any safety reasons (I am not a fan of being so busy following the rules that I have no time for common sense). I would think that a cop would ignore someone that slowed down to almost stopped for the same reason that a cop would ignore a car travelling at 103kph in a 100 zone (either way is infringing on the rules - but you know, a little leeway helps to not piss off the motorists that the cops prefer to be on their side). My friend remained calm (unusual for him) and polite at all times and I was very surprised when the cop pulled out his ticket book to write up the offence.

    Fair enough. Some (most, probably) will ignore it, as he made a good attempt... some don't. He lost the toss of the coin there.... Was there anyone behind him (your mate or the cop car) who saw it and would demand something be done about it, the same sort of person that would complain if he didn't? Was there someone in the cop car telling him to do it, like training perhaps? Who knows.

    Why some cops choose to act in such a way that the general public gets the impression that they are either trying to fill a quota or are just arseholes is a big mystery to me.

    So... only the two options ay? You missed one other reason... doing their job perhaps?

    Why can't all cops try to act fair and decent at all times?

    Because some cops are arses and anal about how they do their job, like so many professions.....

    Rules are rules. Some follow them, some choose not to. Some will enforce to the letter, some don't....


    To be honest I am also less than impressed with your attitude - you seem to suggest that if someone doesn't stop at a stop sign then they deserve a ticket, maybe even if they slow down to 1kph and drive carefully and safely through the empty intersection. I believe the term for that sort of person is 'pedantic arsehole'. Of course someone that drives through a stop sign at a higher, obviously dangerous speed deserves to be ticketed - but someone driving safely, but not technically coming to a complete stop is not the same thing.

    Be as honest as you like... you do not know me. You do not know of my attitude - but since you are on the attack.....

    Nowhere did I say everyone should get a ticket. My threshold was around 20-30kmph or more. I would not have put my donut down in your mates case....

    As stated earlier, some will ticket some won't. The circumstances you describe are fine by me, but what if other factors were present (Like a pedantic arsehole boss in the car with him, other members of the public seeing this happen and the cop left with no option other than to "just do it." for fear of some idjit complaining about him/her not doing their job, perhaps???)


    What are you on about? I am not upset over this - I wasn't even the driver, there is nothing for me to get over. I simply provided an example of where a cop was being a pedantic dick and pulled over someone that was driving very safely (actually a little unusual for my mate). Can't I give an opinion on a forum without someone thinking that I am angry about some minor matter that happened to a friend several years ago? Maybe you need to get over yourself Patrick!
    You seemed upset over it. Perhaps I misred your post...

    Perhaps the cop knew of your mates car and of his usual driving manner...

    You are most welcome to your opinion, I was just pointing out things you possibly hadn't thought of.

  7. #97
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    I have been thinking about STOP signs a bit lately because of a slight change in my driving patterns and new intersections I now must cross. It seems that the STOP sign is often more relevant to the cars turning right, for obvious reasons. Cars turning left only have to check one lane for traffic which most people you would hope could do without having to come to a complete stop. Problem is that the sign applies to all vehicles. Just-about-stopped might not be good enough depending on the cop and the reputation of the driver involved and MarkH has hinted at a possible issue with his mates driving and manner, though not in this case this time. Unfortunately if you do get a ticket in this sort of situation you just have to suck it up because that's the rules.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    I have been thinking about STOP signs a bit lately because of a slight change in my driving patterns and new intersections I now must cross. It seems that the STOP sign is often more relevant to the cars turning right, for obvious reasons. Cars turning left only have to check one lane for traffic which most people you would hope could do without having to come to a complete stop. Problem is that the sign applies to all vehicles. Just-about-stopped might not be good enough depending on the cop and the reputation of the driver involved and MarkH has hinted at a possible issue with his mates driving and manner, though not in this case this time. Unfortunately if you do get a ticket in this sort of situation you just have to suck it up because that's the rules.
    I'm in complete agreement. Once we raise the standard of driving required to obtain a license in the first place, turning left on a STOP could be treated as a GIVE WAY. Almost every day I have to come to a complete stop at a STOP sign turning left at a T-junction and most of the time if I didn't have to completely stop I could easily and safely pull into the gap but because of the compulsory stop I almost always miss it. And this is in the car, before anyone heckles me...
    If it wasn't for a concise set of rules, we might have to resort to common sense!

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaykay View Post
    To pick up on the orginal topic and the "six month" law. As some of you may have noticed NZ First can't be prosecuted as any iffy donations are more than six months ago. The same is true for motoring offences - the court can only send a Notice of Fine when a Reminder Notice is filed in the court within six months of the alleged offence. (A Notice of Hearing also has to be dated within six months).
    The difference being that you receive an infringement notice when you're allegedly caught doing something wrong. In Winnies case, as long as he's not caught in the 6 months, he's home and hosed.
    If it wasn't for a concise set of rules, we might have to resort to common sense!

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Read a magazine from 1973 last night, the editorial comment went along the lines of "55 miles an hour is ludicrous in this day and age and with the safety of modern cars, the speed limit should be 100kph, it's a nice round figure (How is THAT for logic?- 'my words') and is a more reasonable speed on the open road"

    Sound familiar??

    Substitute 100kph for 55mph and 120kph for 100kph and it's the same bleating we hear today.
    Which underlines the point that speed limits are essentially arbitrary.

    If 100km/h is safer than 115km/h, then surely 90km/h is safer than 100km/h? So why isn't the speed limit 90km/h?

    But by the same argument 80km/h must surely be safer than 90km/h? etc etc.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Which underlines the point that speed limits are essentially arbitrary.

    If 100km/h is safer than 115km/h, then surely 90km/h is safer than 100km/h? So why isn't the speed limit 90km/h?

    But by the same argument 80km/h must surely be safer than 90km/h? etc etc.
    It is, of course. 0kmph is totally safe... but you need something set as a speed limit to get somewhere...

    100 is a nice round figure. If it was 90, 80 whatever, there would still be moaning about it. Same goes if it was 120... moaners will go on about how it should be 140....

    It is what it is. Subject to change, as it has done in the past... of course...

  12. #102
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    I really struggle with the concept of taking an "it's a fair cop" attitude when it comes to speed limits.
    Bureaucrats dream up the laws, politicians pass them off and cops apply them as suits their mood.
    In principal speed limits are there to maintain order, but what they actually do is restrict experience and diminish the skill set of drivers. They're set at what is deemed safe for car drivers and consequently they'll come down as skills plummit further, so they're there to be ignored.
    It's a fair cop, what nonsense !

  13. #103
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    Huh???

    They came down once - the 70s oil crisis...

    The crap drivers were around then, there are more now. And some want higher limits???? That is the part I don't get....

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Huh???

    They came down once - the 70s oil crisis...

    The crap drivers were around then, there are more now. And some want higher limits???? That is the part I don't get....
    To be honest, I don't really mind the 100kph limit. I would like to see more tolerance given on some roads where it isn't dangerous to travel at 120, but overall the 100kph + 10kph tolerance allows a reasonable driving speed. I remember when it was 80kph and changed to 100kph - it made it much easier to drive within the law.
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessBandit View Post
    I realised that having 105kg of man sliding into my rear was a tad uncomfortable
    "If the cops didn't see it, I didn't do it!"
    - George Carlin (RIP)

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    0kmph is totally safe...
    There's no such thing as totally safe.

    0kph isn't safe if you're standing beside an unstable cliff. Then there's meteors ...
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

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