Technique Clinic

[warewolf]

of course I'm not very in courageous, so rather learn on a relatively secure way rather than getting scared to death and therefore not really able to learn much , but hey that's me

Learning is best when you extend yourself in small increments - outside the comfort zone but not so far away you can't retreat. You want to be somewhat uncertain of the outcome, but not so scared shitless all you do is panic! Nothing wrong with being circumspect about it all.

Mick Doohan was renowned for being able to pick up a quarter-mph difference in corner speed. He'd just go faster and faster in quarter-mph increments until he found the limit. If he had to catch a slide, traction was only a quarter-mph away. Others would just barrel in several mph faster and crash irretrievably, or stay that several mph slower than the limit. Mick's perception and control was just that much better, giving him a more effective learning mechanism.

PS Just for crisis:

[merv]

Mick Doohan was renowned for being able to pick up a quarter-mph difference in corner speed. He'd just go faster and faster in quarter-mph increments until he found the limit. If he had to catch a slide, traction was only a quarter-mph away. Others would just barrel in several mph faster and crash irretrievably, or stay that several mph slower than the limit. Mick's perception and control was just that much better, giving him a more effective learning mechanism.

Ah, practice, practice, practice

[CrazyFrog]

Hey Colin, are you gonna fit 25mm risers to that wheelbarrow? I think it'll sort the handling no end.

[bart]

I was brought up on a farm with gravel for miles in all directions. Did thousands of miles of gravel on dirt bikes. I was absolutely petrified of the stuff. It's only now, after some road bike experience, that I'm going back to gravel and enjoying it.

I don't know what it is, but for me a mixture of on and off road skills are required.

[trustme]

Now I'm confused.
I figured next time I came to one of those horrible sections of heavy thick gravel I would stand, get the weight back & power on. Then Merv says 'Nah park your arse on the seat'

Mostly I ride seated , lean the bike in & weight the outside peg, mostly it works. When it is tight with lots of holes ,ruts & quick change of direction is needed I stand.

IE , on the MMMM ride , in the Pureora & Kaiangaroa forests every time the going got really shitty I stood up, Out of Tiniroto we struck a section of newly layed thick gravel, no one liked it , but I just could not carry any momentum.

PS I'm not convinced that lower tyre pressures will make a lot of difference in that situation or am I completely wrong

[Motu]

Lots of different ways to say the same things.I'd read some theories then go for a ride.And Oscar's suggestion of a smaller bike is best - no way can you push a big bike hard and over it's limits all day....and still be laughing on the way home.Get an XR200 or something similar and thrash it to death....crash 100 times before you go home.Make it do things it can't...make it do things you can't...then make those things cans.You can do this on a small bike you paid peanuts for,you wouldn't do them on your nice shiny expensive bike.

The bike is important,and for some reason a really good bike by someone's theory is bad for you....and the bike they hate you will love.I can't ride a big bike off road (some have seen this) but I am very happy on smaller bikes,so I will stick to those.Standing up on gravel is dumb.

[Underground]

Ah, practice, practice, practice

Yeah, and heres one you can practice in the safety of your own cul de sac.
Slow standing figure 8's ... Ride figure 8's as slow as possible whilst standing on the pegs and using full lock .
When you have got this one mastered a lot of other gravel road techniques will start to fall into place . Thats my tip o the day

[NordieBoy]

Yeah, and heres one you can practice in the safety of your own cul de sac.
Slow standing figure 8's ... Ride figure 8's as slow as possible whilst standing on the pegs and using full lock .
When you have got this one mastered a lot of other gravel road techniques will start to fall into place . Thats my tip o the day

Helps when the cul-de-sac is on a gravel road in the French Pass though

[bart]

Yeah, and heres one you can practice in the safety of your own cul de sac.
Slow standing figure 8's ... Ride figure 8's as slow as possible whilst standing on the pegs and using full lock .
When you have got this one mastered a lot of other gravel road techniques will start to fall into place . Thats my tip o the day

Good call. Having never owned a bike where I could touch the ground with both feet, I spent a lot of time doing just that.

[merv]

Now I'm confused.
I figured next time I came to one of those horrible sections of heavy thick gravel I would stand, get the weight back & power on. Then Merv says 'Nah park your arse on the seat'

PS I'm not convinced that lower tyre pressures will make a lot of difference in that situation or am I completely wrong

Hey don't get confused, go back to what I was saying about feel of the bike and the terrain. There is a difference between a gravel road with thickish gravel and say really thick soft gravel like on a beach and it also depends on the speed you are trying to go so every situation needs a different approach.

When you say "heavy thick" I presume you are talking beach type gravel and sure I would say there is many a time I would stand up on that sort of terrain because if its already got tracks through it you've got to keep good balance. Its rare to find a gravel road that soft and gravel so deep as to warrant getting up on the pegs.

The closest I got to that was on the Kerosene Ridge Adventure ride back in 2001 when I was on my DR250RW and there was some really thick gravel near Te Awaiti I think it was and trying to ride it tapped out the bike was trying to tank slap the whole way - I tried sitting forward, tried sitting back, tried weighting the pegs and nothing really worked well. Sitting back was slightly better and I didn't want to slow down so just put up with the total oscillatory motion. If you are trying to do about 100 or more for sustained periods standing up just doesn't work in the wind.

Funny thing was we went over those same roads once I'd got the WR and no problem. So it was more about the weight of the bike and set up I reckon. The DR was heavy compared to the WR and with somewhat different geometry so the bike does make a real difference. Motu made that point.

So you've just got to try stuff at the time until you get the best ride because the terrain aint going to be just like the last stuff you rode.

Now tyre pressures - from my experience that is so tyre type dependent and terrain dependent also. Low tyre pressures are best on slippery surfaces no matter what type of tyre - read hard slippery clay or mud type surfaces.

With knobbly tyres on gravel low tyre pressures are fine - I run my WR with about 10 -14 psi max. Knobblies on the bikes we've had are definitely the best for gravel, but we have not had big traillies - like Motu we prefer smaller lighter dirt bikes.

On gravel roads though I have been surprised to find that with the other three bikes we have with road oriented type adventure tyres, that's my XR and Mrs merv's XT250 and DR650, they are far easier to ride fast on gravel with reasonably high pressures - like 21 - 28 psi. At lower pressures they seem to roll around on the stones too much. I suppose its a bit like rally cars using skinny tyres in some situations - you need them sort of so they'll bite into the surface

[warewolf]

I think it is a matter of semantics, but as to the weighting I think we have to agree to disagree.

I just spent ages trying to write lots of clever stuff that wouldn't be misunderstood, but what it all boils down to is this: training gives your "getting a feel for it" some direction, so you get there sooner.

Training isn't about rigid military-style discipline, but rather giving you the knowledge to make informed decisions about your riding.

This is really a pub discussion for after a good ride!!

[merv]

I think it is a matter of semantics, but as to the weighting I think we have to agree to disagree.

Yeah agreed - haha

[warewolf]

Hey Colin, are you gonna fit 25mm risers to that wheelbarrow? I think it'll sort the handling no end.

which end??

[NordieBoy]

On gravel roads though I have been surprised to find that with the other three bikes we have with road oriented type adventure tyres, that's my XR and Mrs merv's XT250 and DR650, they are far easier to ride fast on gravel with reasonably high pressures - like 21 - 28 psi. At lower pressures they seem to roll around on the stones too much. I suppose its a bit like rally cars using skinny tyres in some situations - you need them sort of so they'll bite into the surface

I used to use 18f/20r for adventurey riding but am migrating toward 25f/30r as I get more confidence in what the bike is doing.
I don't want the chance of a pinch flat and only have a rimlock on the back.

I use 32f/36r for day-to-day use and I've gone through the Maungatapu with it like that no problem.

[cooneyr]

Something I noticed since the DB this year is that once you have reasonable technique tyre pressures become less important for general gravel riding. Early this year I managed to destroy a rear D606 in about 2000km running it at 20psi (1000km was the Dusty Butt). The next tyre that went on was at 30psi for the run to the CCA in Welly, down to about 20 for the CCA and then back up to 30psi for the trip home and the trip we did over the Brass Monkey weekend. This tyre lasted over 3000km till I sold the bike with it about 3/4 worn.

The brass monkey weekend involved a fair bit of snow, mud and gravel. With the tyres at 30psi I recon I did better in the snow than the others at 20psi (cut through the snow and got better traction). I never had any real problems in the mud (black dirt pugged up by cows mainly) and the gravel was fine till I got to the deep (50-100mm) rutted loose gravel at the northern end of the Haka where technique was more important.

After this I didn't bother with 20psi again as the marginal increase in traction vs the large decrease in life didn't seem warranted. I'm 110kgs though so the same pressure will not be right for a smaller person and a different tyre will react differently to pressure as well. Point is - try a range of pressures and see what works for you. I'm positive there is no "correct" pressure as it depends on the bike/tyre/rider/terrain situation. I've now got to learn all of this again with the XTZ and a mitchy Desert (when the Desert finally bloody turns up )

I guess that raises a good point - pick a tyre and stick with it till you have learnt what works. Changing tyres all the time will mean you can never establish a base line.

Cheers R