Fast and Safe

[Mongoose]

Mongoose, I've tried to be kind to you but it's a lost cause. When you grow up we may be able to have a proper conversation.

Here we effing go again Alan, to have a conversation with you is to convert to your way of thinking and agreeing with you anyone who holds other thoughts needs to grow up? I am realising rapidly who it is that needs to grow up Alan and it sure aint me. I acept others differing opinions whether I agree or not but will not change my mind because of some bully boy likes of you

[speedpro]

Alan, all anyone needs to do to avoid disaster on a corner like that is to open their eyes and engage their brains.

It comes down to individual drivers taking responsibility for their own driving.

This includes accurately assessing the road conditions at any particular time and place. This is an area of driver training that basically doesn't exist.

This logic could be applied to speed management as well.

Nah , , , lets just have a rigidly enforced brain-dead blanket speed limit, irrespective of whether it's a narrow rural road or divided deserted motorway!

[speedpro]

why not get prisoners to build roads? now there's a cost saving measure.

PD guys do roadside maintenance now. It might actually be beneficial in terms of rehabilitation as well. I would rather do that than be confined all day.

[spudchucka]

This logic could be applied to speed management as well.

Nah , , , lets just have a rigidly enforced brain-dead blanket speed limit, irrespective of whether it's a narrow rural road or divided deserted motorway!

The logic can be applied to anything. The difficulty lies in actually getting people to wake up and be aware of what they are doing. It is the inability of humans to remain aware 100% of the time that contributes to a need for fixed speed limits.

[spudchucka]

It's the welfare system that sets these kinds of guys up. I'm in favour of having them build roads before they go off the rails and become prisoners.

In the case of the legal aid system its very much a bunch of fat cat lawyers who can't cut it in the real world and are making a killing of a system that is easy as hell to rip off. They are just another form of "beneficiary".

[Mongoose]

This logic could be applied to speed management as well.

Nah , , , lets just have a rigidly enforced brain-dead blanket speed limit, irrespective of whether it's a narrow rural road or divided deserted motorway!

You are sort of catching on, fixed speed limits are for the brain dead who THINK they are better than average drivers whether they be on a narrow rural road or devided deserted motorway.

[spudchucka]

Why is it that the people who work in an emergency services capacity seem to have similar views on this topic?

[Skyryder]

Alan the point I was making is that it requires a different mindset than the current one from our MP’s to put your idea into practice.

I have a sneaky suspicion that your arguments, on the surface, of an unrestricted speed limit may indeed have some merit. I believe that most road users do drive at what they ‘know or consider ‘ is a safe speed for the conditions. This forum is full of riders who have been ticketed where they have believe that their riding skills and the conditions at the time of the offence do not constitute a safety risk to either themselves or other road users. I say this with the qualification of the unexpected. Not too long ago there was a discussion here about roadwork signs or the lack of them and the danger this posed to the biker community at large. There were two main schools of thought with this thread.

1 Each of us is responsible for out ‘driving’ as opposed to
2 the road crews are responsible for forewarning of road works.
In truth there is a bit of both.

To continue on this theme there is in this country all sorts of problems that can cause accidents let alone the type of accident where speed is not restricted. The ejection of litter from vehicles, road debris, etc. It is not uncommon now to see retreads lying on th eside of the road where they have become 'unstuck.' Now I admit that these in themselves are not a major cause of accidents but where you get into unrestricted speed and litigation commences into who is at fault it has been my experience that the one with the most resources (money) will win the case. Serious litigation is not an option for the majority of New Zealanders. Never mind the trauma for the innocent party/ies

I mention this as only one example where an unrestricted speed limit could pose problems for the users.

Your solution is where we fundamentally diverge. You suggest in what is euphemistically referred to as the 'privatisation' of our roadways and I quote from your website “The key is to making progress on road transport is to recognise and provide incentives to improve on all four parameters: faster, safer, cheaper and more flexible.” Just can’t see how the privatisation of New Zealand roads is cheaper when road tolls are in place. And that word flexible, I have a problem with this as I can remember not too long ago when the Labour reforms were thrust upon us where flexible meant HERE’S THE CONTRACT TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

I see in your wish list you are not only advocating the privatisation of our highways but also the privatisation of our prisons. Call me a traditionalist Allan but I believe the uses of our highways remain free to travel on and that the housing of criminals is the responsibility of the State. Anything less, to use an America aphorism, is “passing the buck.”

A rethink on your part Alan as to the solution of our road toll and social problems may just make your ideas more acceptable.

Skyryder

[speedpro]

The logic can be applied to anything. The difficulty lies in actually getting people to wake up and be aware of what they are doing. It is the inability of humans to remain aware 100% of the time that contributes to a need for fixed speed limits.

How does a fixed speed limit improve the situation of an unaware person. The condition that needs addressing in this instance is the lack of awareness, not that they may be doing 112.76kmh. If they are unaware that they have crossed the centre line that is THE problem, not that they are doing the aforementioned speed, for instance. Correcting one of these issues will reduce the consequences of the accident. Correcting the other will eliminate the accident. Currently all effort is directed at the former.

Actually that's not quite true, I have heard about places where drivers can stop for a coffee, typically over holiday breaks, thereby refreshing themselves and possibly regaining alertness.

[hobdar]

I'm a top down kind of guy. I like to work from principles down to detail. Also, detail usually needs to be decided by people at the coal-face.

Ok so what do the cops/firefighters/ambulance drivers on this site think about it for THEY are indeed the people at the coalface, scraping up the mess drivers put themselves into.....Should we have no speed limit and should we be able to go to court and prove that what we are doing was safe........

some one bring me a beer please speights old dark...

[speedpro]

Ok so what do the cops/firefighters/ambulance drivers on this site think about it for THEY are indeed the people at the coalface, scraping up the mess drivers put themselves into.....Should we have no speed limit and should we be able to go to court and prove that what we are doing was safe........

some one bring me a beer please speights old dark...

Fairly obviously the coalface people you mention prefer the status quo versus what Alan proposes. I can't quite see their logic, unless they are concerned that Alan's proposed change in thinking would result in an increase in casualties. Alan's interpretation of the statistics he has gathered suggests that the current focus has resulted in an increase in casualties and changing emphasis would reduce casualties.

Who's brainwashing who is yet to be determined. Though, again fairly obviously, the ltsa was giving it a go.

[spudchucka]

How does a fixed speed limit improve the situation of an unaware person. The condition that needs addressing in this instance is the lack of awareness, not that they may be doing 112.76kmh. If they are unaware that they have crossed the centre line that is THE problem, not that they are doing the aforementioned speed, for instance. Correcting one of these issues will reduce the consequences of the accident. Correcting the other will eliminate the accident. Currently all effort is directed at the former.

Actually that's not quite true, I have heard about places where drivers can stop for a coffee, typically over holiday breaks, thereby refreshing themselves and possibly regaining alertness.

An inattentive driver is a problem at any speed. They just become an increasingly more dangerous problem as their speed increases.

[spudchucka]

If we in fact had an Autobahn style of national highway, divided down the middle then a higher speed limit would be appropriate and workable. I simply can't see that national motorway ever existing in NZ, at least not in the next few generations lives. However on the current roading we have in this country we most certainly require speed limits.

As for proving speed at any particular time and place was safe in the circumstances, on the face of it I have no problem with the concept. Again however I just can't see it ever being workable. The factors involved are simply too subjective and court cases would just go around and around with each side calling expert witness after expert witness.

It would be a pointless drain on an already overloaded court system. Spend a couple of days in your local district courts, see how the system operates and you will probably understand what I mean.

[hobdar]

Fairly obviously the coalface people you mention prefer the status quo versus what Alan proposes. I can't quite see their logic, unless they are concerned that Alan's proposed change in thinking would result in an increase in casualties. Alan's interpretation of the statistics he has gathered suggests that the current focus has resulted in an increase in casualties and changing emphasis would reduce casualties.

Who's brainwashing who is yet to be determined. Though, again fairly obviously, the ltsa was giving it a go.

Yes you would think that the cops etc on the ground would jump at a change if they thought it would reduce accidents and deaths, and if the ads etc result in the saving of one life surely that is worth all the money spent esp if it was you or me that was saved or is that too simplistic?

Is there a great conspiracy to say that speed is indeed a killer on our road?


Also how many traffic tickets does Alan hace? (if you don't mind me asking) and the circumstances they were gained..? again if you don't mind me asking?

And spudchukka et al if you had the ability to deteremine road policy etc...what initiatives would you put in place to reduce the road toll?

[speedpro]

An inattentive driver is a problem at any speed. They just become an increasingly more dangerous problem as their speed increases.

Totally agree.

My point is, making the inattentive driver travel at some arbitrary speed, assuming they are paying some small bit of attention to the speed they are doing, will not "stop" them being a problem. The problem is what to do to make them pay attention.

I personally pay a lot more attention when I'm travelling at a reasonable, not neccessarily legal, speed. I used to pay a lot more attention to the roads but now I pay attention to who may be hiding in the bushes, if I'm doing anything illegal, and therefore am paying less attention to other things like other road users. I have trouble staying awake at the legal speed in some circumstances. Driving SH1 past Meremere at the legal limit for some reason makes me sleepy.

The reasonable speed that is the threshold for remaining alert for me appears to be fairly high. In that regard I think I'm probably safer at a speed above the legal limit. As per everybody else, I consider myself to be a reasonably proficient driver/rider and well capable of travelling our roads above the current speed limit. In my case I can back that up with experiance racing (bikes) and that I have never been involved in an accident on the roads in a car. 20+ Years ago I fell off various bikes being a dumb cunt, as you do.