Fast and Safe

[moko]

something that's pissed me off for a long time is people sat in the middle/right hand lane. In the UK where I learnt to drive, you get a good bollockin for doing that. It's dangerous and slows other traffic down.]

Dont know how long you`ve been away mate but you hardly see a traffic cop these days and lane-hogging is back big-style.Really hacks me off following some idiot doing 10 m.p.h. below the speed limit in the wrong lane.Like everyone else I undertake which is illegal and potentially dangerous,I`ve had people suddenly decide to pull over before now as I`ve gone on their inside,cant complain really as it`s me breaking the law.
Best thing about riding here is that filtering is legal and zapping through heavy traffic is as exhilerating as speeding on an empty road,you need to be totally aware of everything going on around you and it sorts out the skilled rider from the throttle-wringer,funny how it`s always the sports bikes you`ll find sitting in jams in the summer.

[Alan Wilkinson]

But sometimes what someone judges to be a safe speed is quite dangerous. imagine if you will someone is coming around a blind corner at about 150 KmH or so and someone goin the sam direction is doin about 50KmH just on the other side of the turn. Both drivers doin that they judge to be safe speed. now you tell me what do you think will happen?? Should the first driver be able to get out of the fine and possible jail time for killing/injurring/coliding with the second driver just by saying he/she was going what they deemed to be a safe speed?

You have to prove your actions were safe in the circumstances. That doesn't mean that you think it is safe, it means that it is safe.

[Alan Wilkinson]

No those terrible revenue gathering Police were using the law and entirely legal means to attempt to catch a burglar.

He's completely incorrect, Obstruction is almost entirely a matter dealt with by arrest. Really Allan don't you even bother to research at all before jumping to conclusions and slandering Police all based on what you read in a Sunday Tabloid?

So why did the police then let her go? Because the mental torture hadn't worked? Or because they were afraid of the public or legal reaction?

[Alan Wilkinson]

I can understand that some people might take that position but the likes of Alan Wilkinson, should be slightly more sophisticated than to just shoot the messenger.

The bottom line, after all this ad hominem BS from the cops, is that for the last four years the police have been executing a very costly policy which hasn't worked and seems to have made things substantially worse.

The supporters of that policy, for whatever personal or psychological reasons, simply refuse to look at the results and say they don't believe in statistics. Everyone should just obey the law they say.

I am used to running a business. Everything we do has a cost. When we do something we monitor it to see if it works. If it doesn't work we fix it or stop doing it.

I have no sympathy for any other approach.

[Paul in NZ]

The trouble is Alan....

Us ordinary folk just want to be left alone and allowed to get on with our lives. We are happy enough for some boundaries to be placed by society and content to abide by them provided all others do. We form the vast majority.

Either side of the great bell curve of opinion lie the extremists. Both ends believe that us folk in the middle are the great unwashed and it is their job to lead us in the direction of the truth.

In most cases the great unwashed, uneducated mouth breathers in the middle don't like or trust the kitten juggling zealots at either end of the spectrum preaching at us. In this sense and despite what lou thinks, you are getting a similar (no, scratch that - better) reception that the head of the LTSA or the minister of police would get.

Most of us have reasonable cars but the last thing we want is un-regulated speed limits. While successful business people (like yourself i should not wonder) may have the where withall to drive their XR8's at max velocity those of us that choose a different path do not want to share the public roads with them.

While most of us will agree with you that some rules and regulations need to be adjusted and corrected you might have to face the fact that your message needs to be modified or presented differently to have a broader appeal. You run the risk of appearing to be yet another extremeist badgering the locals. People don't like that! No matter how truthfull the message!

My observation is that just lately (and in an election year) the HP is backing off slightly. Thats good!

My other observation is - This is not a season for liberal policies in security or policing. Thank your lucky stars your live here where we can enjoy this discussion and have roads to drive on.

Paul N

ps - BTW thanks for occupying that space at the far end of the curve, without it the dark side would take over.

[Alan Wilkinson]

Fair enough but can you really ever see little ol NZ being able to financially support a highway as you describe the full length of the country? With our current population levels.

Yes, the amount Northland has wasted on welfare over the last fifty years could have employed enough people on roadworks to do the whole of SH1.

Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden) are very similar populations and have roads of incomparably better standard.

If its a private toll road it will be the domain of the very rich only. Ordinary NZ's will have to lose their homes, farmland etc etc to provide room for the luxury of the few who could actually afford to indulge in it. I'm no lefty commie type but the sound of that is too much capitalism for my tolerance levels.

This is complete nonsense. There are toll roads everywhere. You pay for what you use, not what others use. There are not enough rich people to fund them, just as there are not enough rich people to fund The Warehouse or an airline. Businesses succeed by providing ordinary people with what they want at a price they can afford. How do you think Toll Holdings got the money to buy NZ Rail?

[Alan Wilkinson]

The short answer is no-one knows yet why [the increase in injuries] has happened. It would be helpful if the police and MOT recognised and admitted that it has happened and assisted an investigation of why.

At the moment we can only speculate on possible reasons. They include various consequences of making overtaking more difficult including congestion & close following, boredom, frustration, trying to maintain the speed limit on slow sections of roads, speedo watching.

But we need analysis to find out what kinds of crashes have increased. All I know is that it is NZ wide, worst in Southern police district and applies both in 100 km/h and 50 km/h areas.

This is an interesting page based on UK data:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/why.html

The speculation that driving to the speedo lowers driver sensitivity to reducing speed in risky contexts is similar to some of my suggestions, and also fits with Hans Moderman's work which says that removing bureaucratic instructions (explicit and implied by road engineering) improves safety outcomes by transfering responsibility to the road user.

The problem is that we now have a huge industry of beneficiaries of the bureaucratic control approach. It is going to be hard to roll it all back or to do anything which threatens their interests.

PS: This is not the first time we have seen this effect in NZ. Check out the long term trends here:

http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...s/Trends/index

After an initial fall around 1974 during the first oil shock when fuel was rationed, carless days and an 80 km/h open road speed limit were imposed, casualties rose until the speed limit was relaxed to 100 km/h in 1985 and modern second-hand imports were allowed. Then a long period of steady decline in casualties commenced.

[Indo]

So why did the police then let her go? Because the mental torture hadn't worked? Or because they were afraid of the public or legal reaction?

I don't know Alan, maybe it was because they didn't want to waste any more time dealing with the scumbag partner of a burgular. Maybe they got called to another job. Who knows, it doesn't change the fact that you went raving and ranting off about the Police all based on what you read in a crappy Sunday Tabloid paper without making any attempt to research the matter first. In my books it really makes you look like an idiot with a massive agenda.

BTW Alan whatever happened to those government spies in the Maori party?

[spudchucka]

The short answer is no-one knows yet why it has happened. It would be helpful if the police and MOT recognised and admitted that it has happened and assisted an investigation of why.

At the moment we can only speculate on possible reasons. They include various consequences of making overtaking more difficult including congestion & close following, boredom, frustration, trying to maintain the speed limit on slow sections of roads, speedo watching.

But we need analysis to find out what kinds of crashes have increased. All I know is that it is NZ wide, worst in Southern police district and applies both in 100 km/h and 50 km/h areas.

Right, I get it now. Its just pure speculation! A quirky odd occurence that nobody can prove the cause of.

So why do you pass it of as fact? Lets think about that for a moment............................................ .......







Hmmm, I can't think a good reason. I guess you are just a LIAR!

By the way, the MOT was disbanded in the early 1990's, you obviously haven't moved on.

[spudchucka]

So why did the police then let her go? Because the mental torture hadn't worked? Or because they were afraid of the public or legal reaction?

Is your PHD a Doctor of Assumption? I would have thought a research scientist would be willing and able to do some reseach into an issue before drawing any conclusions.

I guess its just much easier to score points through the tabloid media approach.

[spudchucka]

Yes, the amount Northland has wasted on welfare over the last fifty years could have employed enough people on roadworks to do the whole of SH1.

Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden) are very similar populations and have roads of incomparably better standard.



This is complete nonsense. There are toll roads everywhere. You pay for what you use, not what others use. There are not enough rich people to fund them, just as there are not enough rich people to fund The Warehouse or an airline. Businesses succeed by providing ordinary people with what they want at a price they can afford. How do you think Toll Holdings got the money to buy NZ Rail?

If you want to control welfare and roading then get yourself elected and into Govt. All your web site will achieve is to attract a few like minded zealots that will moan endlessly and write countless letters to ministers and newspaper editors about the injustices of all this "revenue gathering" and how the police are a bunch of thugs, blah blah bloody blah. At the end of the day you'll achieve stuff all apart from forming an exclusive club of moaning twats.

I'd like to know what the GDP of Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden) is compared to NZ's. What is the average income per household? How much tax do they pay? What is the cost of fuel? How much tax is collected from the fuel pump? How is that tax subsequently spent? What is their annual roading budget in comparison to NZ? What are the open road and residential speed limits? How are these policed? What are the penalties for speeding infringements? What is the cost of insurance? What is required to obtain a drivers licence in Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden)? Then I'd be happy to make a comparison between NZ and Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden).

And if you have time could you also please find out the price of fish in Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden)?

Thanks for your help.

[spudchucka]

The bottom line, after all this ad hominem BS from the cops, is that for the last four years the police have been executing a very costly policy which hasn't worked and seems to have made things substantially worse.

The supporters of that policy, for whatever personal or psychological reasons, simply refuse to look at the results and say they don't believe in statistics. Everyone should just obey the law they say.

I am used to running a business. Everything we do has a cost. When we do something we monitor it to see if it works. If it doesn't work we fix it or stop doing it.

I have no sympathy for any other approach.

So I'm guessing you want to privatise the police and become the boss. That would probably be a way that you could change the things you want to change.

Only thing is that then the police would be a business and would have to turn a profit. I wonder how they would do that?? Whats a way that the police could generate an income??? Hey, I know....... they could hand out traffic tickets for speeding and stuff....... so long as I'm getting a good commision I'll hand the bastards out all day long..... stuff it...... I'll even do overtime.... do check points in my own time to make and extra few bucks....... shit this is a great idea........ where do I sign up! :spudwave: Thats me waving at the next motorist to stop and part with their money.

[speedpro]

Could be time for an afternoon nap, all the kids are getting scratchy.

[Hitcher]

Having done two reasonably solid days riding this weekend, exiting both sides of Dodge, I am increasingly appalled at the driving habits of "meanderthals" in cages. One thing the Police/LTSA obsession with "speed" has done has been to dumb down the skill level of your average common-or-garden motorist.

They have forgotten the art of courtesy and they have forgotten how to overtake -- even on motorways or where passing lanes are marked. They have few driving "skills" at all.

Widening roads will be no cure. Ditto straightening them. There will just be four lanes (or how ever many there are) of them dollying along side by side annoying the likes of me.

A better solution may be to make roads narrower and windier so they kill themselves off...

You can't actually enjoy your ride by dibbly dobblying along with them either. Because they mostly drive automatics and go fast slow fast slow fast slow doing the braking with their left feet. And then when you've had enough they'll do an unindicatored lane change right in front of you, or just "merge" into your lane expecting you to get yourself out of their bloody way.

And we know not to mention cellphones and texting...

I'm going to get a frikkin' laser beam bolted to my helmet.

[Paul in NZ]

I'm going to get a frikkin' laser beam bolted to my helmet.

You telling me that monster does not come with a death ray as an optional extra? How disappointing modern technology is proving to be..

Paul N