Fast and Safe

[Hitcher]

You telling me that monster does not come with a death ray as an optional extra? How disappointing modern technology is proving to be..

Paul N

I think that's only an option on the US market model...

[Waylander]

I think that's only an option on the US market model...

Nope, all ours are after market

[spudchucka]

Having done two reasonably solid days riding this weekend, exiting both sides of Dodge, I am increasingly appalled at the driving habits of "meanderthals" in cages. One thing the Police/LTSA obsession with "speed" has done has been to dumb down the skill level of your average common-or-garden motorist.

They were just as dumb before. Its just that its a new kind of dumb now!

[scumdog]

The bottom line, after all this ad hominem BS from the cops, is that for the last four years the police have been executing a very costly policy which hasn't worked and seems to have made things substantially worse.

The supporters of that policy, for whatever personal or psychological reasons, simply refuse to look at the results and say they don't believe in statistics. Everyone should just obey the law they say.

I am used to running a business. Everything we do has a cost. When we do something we monitor it to see if it works. If it doesn't work we fix it or stop doing it.

I have no sympathy for any other approach.

My "ad hominem BS" which happens to parralel that of other in the same line of work down here is that the serious crashes have declined steadily over the last 3-4 years (about the same time the 'de facto' speed limit went from 120+ down to 110 -.
O.K., I'll put my neck on the block to a certain extent by admitting I have no 'figures' to substantiate the above but it is true.

Mind you our population growth is lagging behind that of the top of the North Island so our vehicle & population has not increased as much this may be reflected in the number of crashes up the 'other end'.

How do you measure a life saved in dollars? And how do you count/measure the hypothetical lives saved?

[Clockwork]

How do you measure a life saved in dollars? And how do you count/measure the hypothetical lives saved?

Why does everything these days have to be expressed in dollars and cents :spudwhat:

[Alan Wilkinson]

Right, I get it now. Its just pure speculation! A quirky odd occurence that nobody can prove the cause of.

So why do you pass it of as fact? Lets think about that for a moment............................................ .......

Hmmm, I can't think a good reason. I guess you are just a LIAR!

By the way, the MOT was disbanded in the early 1990's, you obviously haven't moved on.

You are truly amazing, Spud. I can't be bothered with your drivel any longer. But one last fact for you. There is indeed still a Ministry of Transport in Wellington. And it has just taken back responsibility for Transport Safety policy from LTSA which has been disbanded.

[Alan Wilkinson]

My "ad hominem BS" which happens to parralel that of other in the same line of work down here is that the serious crashes have declined steadily over the last 3-4 years (about the same time the 'de facto' speed limit went from 120+ down to 110 -.
O.K., I'll put my neck on the block to a certain extent by admitting I have no 'figures' to substantiate the above but it is true.

Mind you our population growth is lagging behind that of the top of the North Island so our vehicle & population has not increased as much this may be reflected in the number of crashes up the 'other end'.

How do you measure a life saved in dollars? And how do you count/measure the hypothetical lives saved?

The data for Southern police district is here (see chart at the bottom of the page)
http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...rcement/charts
and in the spreadsheet accessible from here:
http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...forcement/data

In fact, your district has had a large increase in injuries, the biggest in NZ.

[scumdog]

The data for Southern police district is here (see chart at the bottom of the page)
http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...rcement/charts
and in the spreadsheet accessible from here:
http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...forcement/data

In fact, your district has had a large increase in injuries, the biggest in NZ.

Yup, REPORTED injuries as per policy now, earlier they were virtually only reported if a person was admitted to hospital.

And I stand by the statement and emphasise the word in it that you appear to have overlooked: SERIOUS.

[Blakamin]

The data for Southern police district is here (see chart at the bottom of the page)
http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...rcement/charts
and in the spreadsheet accessible from here:
http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...forcement/data

In fact, your district has had a large increase in injuries, the biggest in NZ.

just had a squiz at your links....



I think you need to get out more.......

[Alan Wilkinson]

I don't know Alan, maybe it was because they didn't want to waste any more time dealing with the scumbag partner of a burgular. Maybe they got called to another job. Who knows, it doesn't change the fact that you went raving and ranting off about the Police all based on what you read in a crappy Sunday Tabloid paper without making any attempt to research the matter first. In my books it really makes you look like an idiot with a massive agenda.

My opinion stands. If any civilian had done what those police did he would be serving a jail term. Those police carried out an "arrest" in order to put psychological pressure on a pregnant teenage mother giving them the opportunity to remove her baby to increase that pressure.

That you police call her a scumbag does not give you any rights to inflict punishments or sanctions on her. That is the function of the courts not the police. And by your account it was an abuse of process and a perversion of the intent of the law.

I have no agenda re the police, other than to try to ensure New Zealand does not become a police state in my lifetime, to ensure my tax dollars are not wasted or misused by them, and to correct any traffic-related misinformation campaigns by them.

Finally, it appears the only significant omission by the "crappy Tabloid" was the police belief that the individual was a burglar (which was anyway there to be inferred between the lines) and the only error was a misinterpretation of what the lawyer said about obstruction which also was not something I took at face value. So all your ranting about research not done is bollocks. You've added nothing significant to the story and not changed my opinion at all except to confirm that whenever additional powers are given to police they will almost certainly be abused sooner or later.

[Alan Wilkinson]

Yup, REPORTED injuries as per policy now, earlier they were virtually only reported if a person was admitted to hospital.

And I stand by the statement and emphasise the word in it that you appear to have overlooked: SERIOUS.

Well, I'm sorry I can't give you individual police district data on this one, but NZ-wide the ACC claim data confirms that the NZ-wide increase in injuries from 2001 is real and not just police reporting changes.

I guess the other point to note is that in the Southern district, fatalities have trended up against the previous trend. So it would be very surprising if serious injuries had not too.

[spudchucka]

You are truly amazing, Spud.

Please don't try and blow hot air up my arse Alan, it won't change my mind about you.

I can't be bothered with your drivel any longer.

Ahhh, right, I get it now, "amazing" huh, thats you being facetious, right?

But one last fact for you. There is indeed still a Ministry of Transport in Wellington. And it has just taken back responsibility for Transport Safety policy from LTSA which has been disbanded.

Oh, you mean "Ikiiki Whenua Aotearoa", why didn't you say so instead or implying our old snake friends in black and white were still lurking about somewhere?

Refer to post 128 if you don't like they way I'm replying to your posts. The last sentence is a clue.

And you haven't answered my question(s) in post 161 yet. How do you expect me to compare the roading infrastructures of New Zealand and Scandanavia (Denmark/Norway/Sweden) without that information?

Or do I have to apply for it under the official informations act?

[SPman]

..funny how it`s always the sports bikes you`ll find sitting in jams in the summer.

Fuck off - not in our neck of the woods, mate.

Whilst I can see where Spud is coming from and sympathise with what Alan is trying to get across,Im afraid when I read this thread now, all I can think of, is the theme song for "the Itchy and Scratchy Show" !!

[hobdar]

You have to prove your actions were safe in the circumstances. That doesn't mean that you think it is safe, it means that it is safe.

So who gets to define if it is safe or not....

Is not the traffic speed law set, so that vehicles who pass a warrant of fitness can safely travel according to the road code, without causing harm to ourselves or others. If we break the road rules regardless of the ectenuating circumstances then we should accept responsibility and suck up the fine or the deaths that we cause,

The road law (in my opinion) is set to define a safe environment for everyone no matter if your Peter Brock, Possum Bourne or Joe Bloggs down the road.....driving a crap bike an R1, a top of the line cage or a VW beetle....it has to be set with all the variables in mind...

The Possum Borne incident is a perfect example....You have two drivers who are very experienced rally drivers doing what they think is safe and they crash..simply because one did not follow the laws of the land...If he had done what was safe following the legal rode code Possum would potentially still be around...and so would a whole lot of people who die on our rode..

We have the rights to travel at the limits set by the rode code and the responsibility to do so...if we go outside those limits we deserve what we get....

[Alan Wilkinson]

Whilst I can see where Spud is coming from and sympathise with what Alan is trying to get across,Im afraid when I read this thread now, all I can think of, is the theme song for "the Itchy and Scratchy Show" !!

Yup, you're right. Time to let the cops tag team go play somewhere else and get out more like the man said.

The only unfinished business I've noticed is I wouldn't mind knowing exactly when the cops changed their reporting criteria for injuries and how it was rolled out. The Southern district numbers do look abnormal compared with everywhere else. Let me know if anyone finds out.

Cheers