Fast and Safe

[spudchucka]

Yes indeed there is more than one element involved in the road toll dropping, so why discard speed restrictions and not wny of the others?

I've noticed one of Alan's "trends" is to not answer questions that make too much sense for the counter side of his arguement.

[spudchucka]

I don't believe that anyone is saying the situation hasn't improved, or that it isn't continuing to improve. What I am saying is that the improvement is due to a lot of factors, and speed control is only one of them.

I totaly agree! There are many factors contributing to the reduction, including police enforcement of traffic regulations, (speed limits).

However, Alan is suggesting that police enforcing the speed limit has no impact on the road toll and actually contributes to an increase on traffic crash related injuries.

[speedpro]

I've noticed one of Alan's "trends" is to not answer questions that make too much sense for the counter side of his arguement.

Actually Alan has already explained his reasoning for suggesting this. He might do it again, or you could just look at his web site, or scan back thru this thread.

[spudchucka]

Actually Alan has already explained his reasoning for suggesting this. He might do it again, or you could just look at his web site, or scan back thru this thread.

Not interested enough in his web site to bother going back there again. If you want to supply the post number in this thread that you are talking about I'll happily go have a look.

[scumdog]

I think scum is right. The huge effort and resources that have gone into making the NZ public aware that "speed kills" will be very difficult to counter. It's a numbers game, people vote for politicians, people think "speed kills", politicians are for "speed kills" solutions. Politicians ensure that more "speed kills" propoganda is published to support their platform. More of the public become aware that "speed kills", etc etc. I despair at the stupidity of people in general, especially when it comes to issues like this. The catch-cry, in this case "speed kills" is repeated endlessly with no understanding to back it up.

Years ago my group used to all go everywhere on our bikes as fast as possible. We were all on 900-1100cc bikes. Average sort of "cruising" speed was 140-160kmh, or higher in places like the Napier-Taupo road. More recently I've been Ak to Wn in the car at a minimum cruising speed of 140 or so and for a lot of the time just off the speed limiter. In the car I never had a moment, did nothing that would have caused anyone else to have a moment, and generally just cruised along. There was no demon braking to avoid anything or anyone, no crazy swerving round obstacles, no intimidating flying up behind someone and then jamming on the brakes, nothing, just a good fast cruise to Wellington.

But that makes me a bad bastard 'cause "speed kills". Yeah right.

Years ago I use to drive home very drunk, always travelled fairly slow, never had a crash while drunk.

But that makes me a bad bastard 'cause "drink drivers kill innocent people"

Yeah right.


You could use that adage for a lot of other factors, like seat belts and not wearing them.

Fact is it is a COMBINATION of enforcement of factors that is keeping the lid on the road toll, not just one factor i.e. speed.

So why does nobody say the same about seat belts or drunk-driving?
e.g. "As most people are affected the same amount by different blood alcohol levels police are wasting their effort in enforcing the 400 breath alcohol level, most people will know when they have had enough to drink so it is a waste of police resources targetting drink drivers"

[speedpro]

That's a good point, , but I LIKE going fast.

[scumdog]

That's a good point, , but I LIKE going fast.

Glad to see some honesty!, - no b.s. about "I'm safe" and all the other pathetic reasons you read on this site.

[Paul in NZ]

I was thinking about this thread while we were riding home down SH1 yesterday afternoon. No matter how much I thought about it and the various arguments, 2 things struck me as being totally ‘unsafe’ and until these problems are addressed, there is no point in doing anything about the speed limit except lowering it.

1. There are too many cars for not enough road. From Levin to Wellington on any weekend, this road is packed and impossible to do 100kph for more than 5 or 10 minutes at any stage.

2. SHW1 should NOT have roundabouts (Otaki), go through small towns (Otaki and Levin), have fruit stalls, driveways, intersections and other places where people can decide to stop, turn or otherwise move in any direction other than with the flow of traffic.

It was not a pleasant trip at all.

However, crazy as the traffic was, I actually wonder how many accidents actually occur during these high traffic volume times and how many occur (like the one in Hamilton) at off peak low volume times?

And more importantly, why….

[Mongoose]

Actually Alan has already explained his reasoning for suggesting this. He might do it again, or you could just look at his web site, or scan back thru this thread.

So asking for clarification of statements like
"Same thing happened in the U.S. when they relaxed the federal speed limit. There was no consistent impact on the road toll. Some States went up, some went down. There just isn't a strong connection between speed limits and casualties." is a no go region?
From what I have seen, speed is the ONLY factor commented on and no other explanation offered, why?
Why did some states appear to go down? What was theur roading structure like? ow did their population and roads compare to NZs?
Alan claims to be a "From the top down man" but unfortuantely to get to the top result one must start to get answers from the bottom up.

[Alan Wilkinson]

rubbish. when HP was introduced, there was a drop in both the fatality numbers to under 500 for the first time ever. this downward trend continued until 2004, however the numbers are still under 500. the 2005 trend is down.

But the trend was down before HP was introduced, in fact since 1985. The question is whether it changed direction perceptibly, and it hasn't. You can't tell from one year either - you have to look at the whole picture.

[Mongoose]

But the trend was down before HP was introduced, in fact since 1985. The question is whether it changed direction perceptibly, and it hasn't. You can't tell from one year either - you have to look at the whole picture.

Yes, the WHOLE picture, and not leaving out the bits that you disagree with

[Alan Wilkinson]

Yes, the WHOLE picture, and not leaving out the bits that you disagree with

Exactly, and that is why my charts show all the available data, whereas the LTSA and police show only the bits they want you to see.

[Mongoose]

Exactly, and that is why my charts show all the available data, whereas the LTSA and police show only the bits they want you to see.

Unike you who mentions things like the increased speed limit in the US of A, claim it caused the death rate to go up in some states and down in others but offer no other info as to the whys of it all? Except to say speed was not a factor, yeah right. If you believ that speed is not a contributing factor, all your stats(and you of all people should know how to manipulate them) mean zilch.Sure there are other factrs bt for injury and or death speed is a LARGE factor.

[Alan Wilkinson]

I was thinking about this thread while we were riding home down SH1 yesterday afternoon. No matter how much I thought about it and the various arguments, 2 things struck me as being totally ‘unsafe’ and until these problems are addressed, there is no point in doing anything about the speed limit except lowering it.

1. There are too many cars for not enough road. From Levin to Wellington on any weekend, this road is packed and impossible to do 100kph for more than 5 or 10 minutes at any stage.

2. SHW1 should NOT have roundabouts (Otaki), go through small towns (Otaki and Levin), have fruit stalls, driveways, intersections and other places where people can decide to stop, turn or otherwise move in any direction other than with the flow of traffic.

It was not a pleasant trip at all.

However, crazy as the traffic was, I actually wonder how many accidents actually occur during these high traffic volume times and how many occur (like the one in Hamilton) at off peak low volume times?

And more importantly, why….

Like I said, spend less money on cops and "speed kills" programmes and more money on roads, especially upgrade SH1.

I could imagine serious crashes occur disproportionately off-peak for a whole bunch of reasons including alcohol, tiredness, young drivers, less familiarity with route, less care and attention apparently necessary, worse visibility.

[Alan Wilkinson]

Unike you who mentions things like the increased speed limit in the US of A, claim it caused the death rate to go up in some states and down in others but offer no other info as to the whys of it all? Except to say speed was not a factor, yeah right. If you believ that speed is not a contributing factor, all your stats(and you of all people should know how to manipulate them) mean zilch.Sure there are other factrs bt for injury and or death speed is a LARGE factor.

If we don't even agree on what is happening it's a bit pointless to discuss why. I'll be happy to have people understand what is happening for a start.