Fast and Safe

[scumdog]

yup... look at the fact germany has about 2000 deaths a year on the autobahn
but less actual crashes than most countries (source: Autobahn, discovery channel)...
you dont get injured when you or your car fucks up at 200kph, you die!
all this on a road without a pot-hole....
we're screwed!

Does Alan have this info on his site? Does he even KNOW about such figures? :spudwhat:

Probably just touts the low crash figures but skips on the death bit....

[spudchucka]

And I see in the Chch Press that our esteemed Minister of Police is 'happy' with the current Police numbers.

Skyryder

If you have a good look at the NZPA web site and read over some of the online association journals you will pick up on the feeling amongst the troops on that issue.

[marty]

aaallllaaaannnn........cooeee.......come in alllllaaaannn....we're waiting for your factual comments alllaaannnnn

[Clockwork]

So why does Alan not have a bad rep with so many people bagging him?

Nice work Spudchucka!

Had some points to post of this thread, but after reading most of it I just feel drained.

Can't get past Alan's theory on letting everyone go as fast as they deem is safe, and using the courts to establish if this was the case afterwards where that person's judgement is challenged for going too fast/slow. If this happens then won't the cases ruled on in court provide guidelines for safe speeds, and then there will be rules in effect anyway!?! (case law)

I'm not certain he was advocating "no speed limits". I thought he was asking for the ability to defend a ticket on the grounds of safety.

Perhaps the issue here is the mandatory sentence. Does anyone reading this believe that 140Kph on a dry, empty, lane separated road is more dangerous than doing 63kph in rain and heavy traffic past a school at 3pm? :spudwhat

[bear]

I hope you are as happy with Alans theory when you have just been cleaned up by some dick who was going as fast "as he deemed safe" and decides to take it to court to 'prove' he WAS driving at a safe speed.

And if that speed was quite low when he crashed into you? Then the Court might decide that even 70kph was too fast and make the open road limit 65kph.

Perhaps I was mis-interpreted. I mean that Alan's view would be ridiculous in policing the masses on an individual basis, and at the end of the day judgements in court would no doubt set presidence's and then we would be back at square one - with rules and guidelines in place for the masses to follow.

Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread by countless others, you'd need to huge court system to handle the cases as no doubt everyone would be playing the game and seeing how much they could get away with (fast and slow) - anarchy on the roads I imagine.

[Clockwork]

Maybe the cameras should be video cameras and send out tickets to anyone not observing the 2 second rule?

I think this is a great idea!

[bear]

I'm not certain he was advocating "no speed limits". I thought he was asking for the ability to defend a ticket on the grounds of safety. :

Yeah, but safety might be a matter of one's perception at times, and a young fella in a fast car may think that 140kmh is okay, but others may not, and then you've got to go through the whole system to resolve.
I just think it's too individual, and in order to most effectively manage to masses simplistic rules that cover the majority are needed.

[Alan Wilkinson]

Does Alan have this info on his site? Does he even KNOW about such figures? :spudwhat:

Probably just touts the low crash figures but skips on the death bit....

Check out the chart here:

http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...s/Trends/index

or here:

http://www.fastandsafe.org/sharedfil...ments/p102.pdf

Germany has the same fatality rates as Australia despite its autobahns with unrestricted speed limits.

[Alan Wilkinson]

you'll have to post a link to that fact alan, cause i can't find it.

See charts on this page:

http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...s/Trends/index

and also:

http://www.fastandsafe.org/site.aspx...rcement/charts

[Biff]

I saw a crash on an Autobahn in Germany once. It was horrific. The vehicles involved pretty much disintegrated in front of my eyes without any hope of anyone surviving.

I think you'll find that the main reason that traffic accidents are relatively low in Germany is not because there are no limits on some stretches of the autobahn some of the time (there are very, very few stretches if any where there are no speed restrictions at all, all of the time), but because they have invested very heavily in driver training (arguably the best drivers in Europe/the world), rigid traffic policing (yep, lots and lots of Police in fast cars and no sense of leniency), strict traffic laws (you'd have a fit living there Alan), cameras everywhere, intelligent traffic flow/speed monitoring systems and so on.

[Alan Wilkinson]

Perhaps I was mis-interpreted. I mean that Alan's view would be ridiculous in policing the masses on an individual basis, and at the end of the day judgements in court would no doubt set presidence's and then we would be back at square one - with rules and guidelines in place for the masses to follow.

Also, as mentioned earlier in the thread by countless others, you'd need to huge court system to handle the cases as no doubt everyone would be playing the game and seeing how much they could get away with (fast and slow) - anarchy on the roads I imagine.

This is fair comment, but I don't agree with your conclusions. We already have a huge court system to deal with some 75,000 speeding tickets every month. After an initial settling down, I would expect few cases would go to court.

The advantage would be that safety rules would be based on fact, not political opinion. In court, fact defeats opinion.

I have no problem with rules and guidelines based on relevant safety facts. At the moment, though, they are mostly based on bureaucratic convenience and political opinions.

[vifferman]

I also have another theory that relates to foreign drivers. Some of these people come from countries where they can't or don't drive and their brains just arent used to seeing things coming at them at 200km/h (100km/h in each direction). This induces a state of panic etc etc and then they kill someone, their family pays the victims family 40 grand and they get off scott free. Bastards.

Iam not a bastrds I new both of my fathers.
but I am not used to seeig things comming so fast towrds me so how can I stop the painic? I donot want to kill someone who is not my enimies.

[vifferman]

Iam most ly slow and safes.

[Blakamin]

Germany has the same fatality rates as Australia despite its autobahns with unrestricted speed limits.

according to the doco, germany has those deaths just on autobahns... it does NOT include cities, b roads etc!!!!

um.. you might wanna check the years on your chart... I'm sure we haven't got to 19969 yet or 20007 either... if you get that wrong, what else???

and "per 10,000 registered vehicles" is pretty stupid.. what about overall numbers?? how many "per 10,000 registered vehicles" use the autobahn everyday? same as the kiwi vehicles that use sh1? or the aussies (that actually have states, therefore can use "State Highway") use the Hume????
A bit mis-leading...

[Alan Wilkinson]

I saw a crash on an Autobahn in Germany once. It was horrific. The vehicles involved pretty much disintegrated in front of my eyes without any hope of anyone surviving.

I think you'll find that the main reason that traffic accidents are relatively low in Germany is not because there are no limits on some stretches of the autobahn some of the time (there are very, very few stretches if any where there are no speed restrictions at all, all of the time), but because they have invested very heavily in driver training (arguably the best drivers in Europe/the world), rigid traffic policing (yep, lots and lots of Police in fast cars and no sense of leniency), strict traffic laws (you'd have a fit living there Alan), cameras everywhere, intelligent traffic flow/speed monitoring systems and so on.

You are just as dead however you do it. Our neighbours' son just slid off the edge of the road 5 km from home on our little back country road. Less spectacular, just as sad and bad for the statistics.

So you have to be objective about overall results and not make decisions and policies swayed by occasional spectacular or emotive incidents.