Accident report

[riffer]

Personally, I'd like to see BRONZ being a little more forthcoming with an audible and public affirmation that motorcyclist's shit does in fact stink.

Fair enough. But that's only half the equation. We get your point. What can you offer beyond pointing out the faults?

Otherwise we're only adding to the perception problem and inevitably hastening our own demise.

[dipshit]

We do have some new laws...eg..."A rider must face forward when riding a motorcycle" I shit you not!....this is how Govt reacts to things..with dopey laws!

This is no surprise whatsoever. There are motorcyclists this fucking stupid...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PlvtI0WBrHY

(4:02 for the riding backwards bit)

[Katman]

What can you offer beyond pointing out the faults?

I've got a battered and scarred forehead to show for what I have "offered".

[Ixion]

I've been riding since the 50s (well, legally, a bit less).

The bastards have ALWAYS been trying to tax us off the roads. It's what they do. Cos they hate us. A rise in the road toll is just a convenient excuse, if it were not that it would be something else. No man ever lacked for a stone to throw at a dog.

If they raise rego to a point I can't afford it (insert poor sweet old man bit) , I'll just ride without. Wouldn't be the first time.

[hospitalfood]

fatal crashes:-

alcohol and drugs 8%
neither 55%

safer drunk and wasted !

[riffer]

I've got a battered and scarred forehead to show for what I have "offered".

Nah, I'm serious. If this is, indeed, such a crisis point it's time to start offering solutions.

I'm not convinced that we face a crisis from outside forces. Sure, there's some bleating in the media ATM regarding motorcycle safety, but come the NY when the markets open again and everything gets even worse they'll soon forget about motorcyclists again.

But a lot of what you talk makes sense even if the message is somewhat strident. So I'd like to hear what ideas you have.

Cause "Slow down" ain't enough as a one rule fits all. And that seems to be the establishment's answer ATM.

[Tone165]

Cant argue with you regarding the statement in your signature, but I guess it is a PR issue.

To parallel it... if the gun arguement for and against was put forward in reasonabe terms it would be good...but as long as you have a vehrment, extremest pov on one end of the arguement, there is no place for "reasonable" at the other.

By fighting from either end, with luck...you will end up with reasonable..if you start with reasonable it will get bargained back to ridiculous and unworkable.

but...a great source of revenue!

[Oscar]

If I might address this one...

1st thing to say is that when dealing with this sort of thing..one must enter at the far end of the feild...and NOT at a reasonable starting point for discussion.

We..the motorcyclists..must put the main focus on outside factors, without denying the facts.

I wont bore you with figures that are subject to manipulation,

A large number of MC crashes are single vehicle ones, that means that they were rider error..


But what about the pothole or peice o crap on the road! I hear you say..

Environmental???? Could be, but also can be that the rider "Should" have been riding to suit actual AND possible conditions...food for debate at least!

Clearly there are problems that need to be looked at in the area of rider training, roadcraft, skills development etc...

But..to be quoted in the major press that the problem is "mainly" the riders themselves, would be to releive the wider community of responsibility.

We need to raise awareness, not provide "outs" for anyone.

I'm a huge advocate of rider training here in SEQ where we have exactly the same problems. We don't have anyone doing the BRONZ thing here.

We do have some new laws...eg..."A rider must face forward when riding a motorcycle" I shit you not!....this is how Govt reacts to things..with dopey laws!

So..the real question here is why are you bagging the guy, when you should be 110% supporting him, and BRONZ, to act on your behalf, among the wider community!

We can train and practice and drill and study and be the worlds best riders.....do you think that would mean no more dead bikers???

We can fix our own problems ourselves...in house, but NOT if restrictive and ineffective laws are passed.....imagine if the 250cc rule was extended to everyone!

What a success it would be...road deaths would be down heaps.....don't try and deny it...because for a start..half of the riders out there would give up riding if they had to go back to a 250.

So c'mon Kiwi's...back your man, dissention in the ranks is not helpful..because there are plenty of Non MC folk to raise the negative arguements!

And they can do it much better than you, because they are not held back by any actual knowledge of what the hell they are on about!

Why should I support him 110% if I don't agree what he's saying?
As for your comments - you're just giving me an excuse for my tombstone: "I didn't crash because of my lack of training, what killed me was environmental conditions, bad roads and bad drivers"

[Oscar]

Fair enough. But that's only half the equation. We get your point. What can you offer beyond pointing out the faults?

Otherwise we're only adding to the perception problem and inevitably hastening our own demise.

How 'bout confronting some issues within our own ranks?
Start with encouraging "Born Again Bikers" to get some training.

The perception problem is that we're irresponsible and reckless, something that the comments from Mr Finn did a lot to reinforce.

[Katman]

Nah, I'm serious. If this is, indeed, such a crisis point it's time to start offering solutions.

If you haven't seen solutions offered in the postings I've made over the last couple of years then you are one of the ones responsible for those scars on my forehead.

[riffer]

If you haven't seen solutions offered in the postings I've made over the last couple of years then you are one of the ones responsible for those scars on my forehead.

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. My problem has been that I've been guilty of writing you off because of the tone of your message.

There is merit in your argument however. And what I'd like to see is say, a ten point action plan. Motorcycle deaths aren't actually increasing per capita, but they are increasing as registrations increase.

And I'm not too sure if the blame can be attached to any one thing. Yes, some guys are total idiots. But the vast majority aren't. And there's at least two fallen KBers whom I knew personally and whose riding I respected - and they were both mentors on this site - whose deaths can't be put down to riding like muppets. How can we prevent their deaths?

The muppets probably make up 50% of the problem. What about the rest?

[Ixion]

..
And I'm not too sure if the blame can be attached to any one thing. Yes, some guys are total idiots. But the vast majority aren't. And there's at least two fallen KBers whom I knew personally and whose riding I respected - and they were both mentors on this site - whose deaths can't be put down to riding like muppets. How can we prevent their deaths?

The muppets probably make up 50% of the problem. What about the rest?

To some extent, you can't.

Sometimes, the Biker Gods just decide to shit on you. Take Mr Dodgyiti's recent incident (not a death but could have been). Just sitting, stopped, by the side of the road. And a boat comes flying through the air and hits him. How on earth can anything prevent something like that - short of banning motorcycles altogether. Or the accident where a tree branch fell down in front of a biker (who happened to be a cop!).

Motorcycling will always be dangerous. Like swimming. Or scuba diving. Or parachuting. Seen the fatality trends for some of those?

The difference is that no-one has a vested interest in demonising swimmers, or divers, or parachutists.

The answers to the "how do you prevent as many of the deaths/injuries as possible" are well known and well rehearsed. But to put them into effect is another matter.

There are re-training courses , targeted specifically at 'returning bikers'. But how do you force anyone to go to one? And I do not believe that the much blamed BAB is the monster he is made out to be . Much is made of the "had a bike licence at 16 and now buys a GSXR1000 at 40, never having ridden in the interim". But what of the "buys a Harley, never having ridden a bike at all, and won't suffer the indignity of a learner licence so doesn't have a bike licence at all". A situation which is , I'm told, much more common, and one which the police (and probably other authorities) are happy to turn a blind eye to.

And- even if you could make every rider attend a dozen course, take a dozen tests to prove how skilled he is, how is any of that going to stop an idiot deciding to overtake a string of cars on a blind corner? You can teach skills, but you can''t teach common sense.

[reofix]

solutions or paranoia.?.. no one is out to get us... if we speed a lot we get more tickets ... if we crash a lot our ACC premiums go up... bikes have never been banned anywhere... just bikers will be expected to pay their share , just like all the other sectors of society... have you ever seen the difference btwn the ACC levy rate for construction and for office workers? last time i looked construction workers paid 10 times more!!!

[reofix]

saw an interesting stat on horses (the kind with 4 legs)... seems you are twice as likely to end up in hospital riding a horse as compared to a motorbike ( per hour so spent) ... and guess what .....experience makes a big difference to bike riders (more experienced = less hospital time) but no difference to the horsey crew... those big sweaty beasts chuck everybody off!!!

[Woodman]

The fact remains that we choose to ride bikes and even a minor incident geneally ends up with more severe injuries that will require more hospital/medical time to get us right again. Cars run into each other on a daily basis and never cause injuries, the same cannot be said for car vs motorcycle or motorcycle vs motorcycle/tree/bridge/road etc. My point is, why should car drivers have their acc increased because we choose bikes, surely the fair system is user pays.